Jack Vance, Dying Earth, and the Primer of Practical Magic

Gez said:
If you can read French, there's a Swiss company that published an adaptation of Lyonesse. -->

Sadly, I think said company has gone bankrupt since...

Vance is very popular in France.. in general more so in Europe (Holland as well) than in the US. Most of the DERPG material has been translated into French and I'm hoping they will make a French language version of the Primer as well, if only so my grandmother can read it!

J
 

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lyonstudio said:
I was born here. I lived uptown for a couple of years recently but with the birth of our two kids and good real estate prices uptown we sold and moved to Destrehan.

Where y'at?

Are you officially working on other d20 supplements for DERPG?

I live in Mid-City, where alas, the real estate prices remain low :(

I am not working on anything for Pelgrane at the moment, right now I'm working on something for The Riddle of Steel. I know Pelgrane has a database of a lot of other material though, for example, all the wonderful Dying Earth Monsters (gotta love that Deodand). If the Primer does well they may ask me to work on one or more follow-up books. Whether I actually do it or not will depend how much they want to pay me!

J
 

review

Hello all,

I'm currently reading the Primer of Practical Magic and hope to post a review this weekend here or on RPG.net. I don't know Vance so I can't judge it from that aspect. I will be reviewing it from how I and my players use and are, hopefully, inspired by the ideas within.

Eddy
 

Could you confirm soem thing for me DB? This book as aimed at playing ance in a d20 campaign right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?

Also welcome to the boards Maelstrom, and I'd love to read your review!
 

Olive said:
This book as aimed at playing ance in a d20 campaign right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?

I'm afraid I failed at my decifer attempt ... could you reiterate that please?

J
 

Drifter Bob said:
I'm afraid I failed at my decifer attempt ... could you reiterate that please?

Sorry. The sentence should have been:
This book as aimed at playing a Vance-style game in a d20 system right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?

A further question is how did you work out the market prices for the items if you didn't do pre-reqs?
 

Primer rationalle

Olive said:
Sorry. The sentence should have been:
This book as aimed at playing a Vance-style game in a d20 system right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?

A further question is how did you work out the market prices for the items if you didn't do pre-reqs?

I think I understand better where you are coming from now.

First off, the book is designed to be a resource for D20 players. We tried to make it useful for people who just want a few new spells (and items) like from any other D20 sourcebook, and we also put some extra flavor material in there so that people who wanted to try to run a Dying Earth type of campaign, or just move their D20 campiagn a bit in that direction, could try to do so.

For example, just like people did in this thread, we did discuss the role of alignment, various classes and races and etc. in the dying earth. Another thing we touched upon was the different attitude toward magic. Magic spells and artifacts are the most sought after commodities in the dying earth. Magic is frequent, but not commonplace. It is not mundane, nor are spellcasters a dime a dozen.

That said, this is not an all -encompasing Dying Earth sourcebook for D20. There are no monsters, no campaign background, no maps or cities or NPC's in there. Just spells, magic items, prestige classes, feats, and a few other useful tables and special rules.

The basic philosophy we took toward magic though hearkens back to early D&D. The idea of mages scouring through old libraries, and searching all over the countryside for elusive manuscripts, was originally part of D&D. Now the atitude is different, every spell in existance is available in the Players Handbook and in most campaigns, at least 2 per level can be selected automatically by the spellcaster. We wanted to make spells more mysterious again. In the Primer, I suggested that when making these Dying Earth spells available in a "normal" D20 campaign, it might be a good idea to make them special in some way, from another plane or a far gone era. This way they are truly special and mysterious.

I also suggested that if you use the spells as ranger or druid or bard spells, say, that they not be available in some general repetoire that any caster can choose from, but instead must be taught or learned in some special way.

Of course that is just a suggestion, you can use the manual any way you want to. It's just within the context of the "flavor" of the Dying Earth to make magic rare and enigmatic.

Similarly, with the magic items, we did not want them to be mundane. If you are running a Dying Earth milieux, the items within that context are not being made any more... generally speaking, they all come from the distant past (like the vast majority of the spells). In a 'normal' D20 campaign with just a few of these elements added in, we reccomended making these items again come from another plane, or some remote period in antiquity. It was just the approach Pelgrane wanted to take and I agreed. It just didn't seem right for any average magician to be cranking out Baron Kalofi's jewels or the Schiavona of Kavic at will.

I guess, in this sense you could consider them not regular magic items at all but very minor artifacts like in the 1E DMG.

Naturally, as with the spells, that can be changed at the whim of the user, we just didn't provide the prerequisites. Feel free to do so if you want to!



As for the spells being low level, that was just how I interpreted them. Those are the spells from the Dying Earth stories and novels, which as you know, are mostly not very high level. There are not a lot of meteor swarms or the like being bandied about in most Dying Earth stories, most of the spells are hold and charm type spells, illusions, summoning spells, spells to bind and entrap, to manipulate people, to investigate mysteries or to foil investigation. There are a few truly deadly high level combat spells such as the Excellent Prismatic Spray, the Forlorn encystment, Phandaals Gyrator and etc., and these seem to suffice for the purposes of powerful wizards.

Most of the spells fall really in the middle range, 4th level or so, which matches the level of spells found in the Cugel and Turjan of Miur level stories (the first two levels of play as established in the Dying Earth RPG)

As another feature for mid -high level play you have the Diabolists, who have an impressive arsenal of abilities and spells for coping with and controlling demons and other outsiders, as well as acquiring very useful permanent outsider companions.

Finally, for very high-level (Rhialto the Marvelous) play, Arch Magician prestige class, which relies more on these creatures called Sandestin, which are kind of like indentured Djinn, to work all their magic for them with Limited Wish and Wish spells (and other very powerful abilities)

Controlling the Sandestin requires excellent persuasion, bluff, and intimidate skills, as well as a superb lawyers attention to detail, (because they love nothing better than to accidentally-on-purpose misinterpret orders) but if you can get them to do your will, as the Great Arch Magicians can, you can literally move mountains.

Hope that helps.

DB
 

Olive said:
A further question is how did you work out the market prices for the items if you didn't do pre-reqs?

I tried to estimate the value of the raw materials, if any, based on the tables of jewels and gems in the DMG, then I added the value of what seemed to be magic items of equivalent value from the DMG. In some cases the prices were increased a bit further, this to reflect the rarity of these items in a D20 setting (each one in many cases being unique) and / or the elevated value of magic items in the Dying Earth, where even the most non-functional / unpractical magic artifact is appreciated and valued for it's intrinsic value, like a faberge egg.

DB
 

Drifter Bob said:
You might be able to mix the two systems somehow, there is already a considerable difference between the Turjan level material and the Cugel level stuff, the latter being darker and more "high fantasy", perhaps you could tailor some of the material to a Lyonesse campaign. It's been a while since I read any of those books and I don't remember too many spells and monsters specific to the Lyonesse milieux... was there anything specific you were hoping to see?
DB

Well, since you asked, I would be thrilled to see a "campaign book" of some kind for Lyonesse (perhaps something for both d20 and the DERPG).

It has always struck me that Lyonesse would make a great FRP setting -- it is closer to "high fantasy" than Vance's Dying Earth novels, but still has a distinctly sardonic 'Vancian' character to it.

There are many great locations in Lyonesse. The Ulflands, Tantrevalles Forest, and Ys would all be interesting places for players to visit. Twittens Corner in the Tantrevalles Forest in particular would be great fun: an interesting "Faerie" and magic bazaar.

There are also many interesting peoples in Lyonesse: Vance's version of Faeries, the changelings, the ancient militaristic Ska, the ancient people of Ys, and so forth.

The magic system in the novels, if I remember correctly, is quite similar to the one found in the Dying Earth books (sandestin magic, etc.). But there are some interesting magic items that could be translated into game terms.

I guess a campaign book that described some of these things -- either for use in a Lyonesse campaign or as ideas that DMs could integrate into their own campaigns -- would be a great resource. Though this is probably just wishful thinking, as I am not sure how much demand there is out there for such a product.
 

Thanks Drifter Bob,

great insights! I have a much better idea what the book is about now.

Do the publishers ahve a proper distribution deal, or is mail order the way to go?
 

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