Japanes Sword Additions and Corrections

[LGodamus]

Aaron2 I am impressed...Hasso is the one similar to holding a ball bat...well one of them at least

 

[Tony Vargas]

I started to read this thread, then I realized I'd heard it all before - too many times.

What really gets me isn't the wild-eyed conviction that the katana deserves some sort of uber-stats, though that bothered me for a long time, no, it's the way people who obviously haven't bothered collecting any solid information try to set eachother straight with such misplaced zeal.

I'm not going to join that club. You want to know more about historical weaponry, don't read a post by myself (or anyone else here), do some serious research. Then, keep it to yourself, because, even if you post something perfectly factual, here, it'll be so lost in the sea of half-truth and misaprehension, that we'd never be able to sort it out, anyway.

What I will venture, though, are some balanced stats, and a simple rationale for them... just because I have 'em laying around, collecting virtual dust.

Remember, D&D isn't an historical simulation, it's just a fantasy game, and it works on pretty simplistic assumptions. Bigger weapons do more damage, if thier sharp, it's slashing damage, that sort of thing.

Just compare what a katana is - not the myth surrounding it, or the historical minutiae - to the other weapons, and derive some playable stats.

A katana is:

metal

sharp

single-edged

curved

not too much under a meter in length


Coincidentally, that also describes a scimitar. About the only major difference is that the katana has ample room for two hands. There're plenty of other differences, but, frankly, they're below the level of granularity you get with the system.

So, a scimitar is a one handed, sharp, curved, single-edged, meter-long metal weapon, and it's given 1d6 18-20/x2 as a medium martial weapon. A katana is basicly similar, but is specifically two-handed - rating it at 1d8 18-20/x2 as a medium exotic weapon (ie: to a scimitar what a bastard sword is to a long sword), would be perfectly reasonable.

No need to research a few centuries of japanese history or speculate on hypothetical east-west duels.

 

[The Proconsul]

Bravo Tony, a very, very appropiate post (this is NOT ironic!)

However, D&D being a fantasy game, you can give the katana uber-stats and not have a guilty conscience, really . Using estern and western weapons together doesn't make sense anyway, as has been pointed out in the crappy quality of japanese armor (although I think the Chinese had better armor, actually)

 

[Xeriar]

Actually, it's not impossible to balance a sword right at the center of the intended grip. This lessens the striking power of each blow, but it causes the blows to start quicker and recover quicker.

While I'm at it, a variant katana should have a critical of 18-20/x2, not 20/x3. Center of gravity and all that.

Friend of mine had a sabre like that... MAN that was a death stick.

Or would have been, were it not all rusty :-(

 

[Anubis]

I'll make my statement one last time.

If made reasonably, a three pound sword feels exactly how a three pound sword is supposed to feel.The only way it would feel "heavy" for its size is if you were used to dealing with weapons that were balanced differently.

Like I said, try wielding a sword and THEN come back here to discuss with people who have. The only time a 3 pounds sword feels like a 3 pounds sword is when 99% of the weight is in the hilt. You know what that gets you? One of them wobbly swords that make noise or a REALLY heavy foil, 'cause if those 3 pounds feel like 3 pounds, there ain't anything in the blade.

There is no battle sword you could EVER swing that would feel like its weight. The only time a sword will feel like it's true weight is when it's either hanging free or being held straight up. As someone who's done it, I can assure you that there has never been a swordfight where the swords in question stayed in these two positions. Eventually you gotta swing, and then you feel it.

For example, a baseball bat is balanced such that most of its weight is far up from the grip. I am expecting this so it doesn't feel heavy. When I'm at the plate waiting for a pitch, I hold the bat almost perpendicular to the ground such that I don't have to fight the weight distribution much. This is similar to a roof guard or, IIRC, the hasso stance. Now, if I were playing tennis, I wait for the serve with the racket almost parrallel to the ground. If I held a baseball bat like a tennis racket, the bat would feel heavy and unbalanced, but that is because I am not using it correctly. Weapon and fighting style go hand-in-hand.

Aaron

Using things that weigh less than half a pound due to being made of wood (baseball bats) and aluminum (tennis rackets) is kinda silly. I guarantee that if you made a baseball bat out of solid steel, it wouldn't feel the same (although you'd hit the ball MUCH farther), and if you made a tennis racket out of solid steel, you'd certainly feel it (it wouldn't ever break, but you'd only be able to play one set before having to stop).

Like I said, try picking up a barbell from the end and you'll understand.

 

[paulewaug]

Remember, D&D isn't an historical simulation, it's just a fantasy game, and it works on pretty simplistic assumptions. Bigger weapons do more damage, if thier sharp, it's slashing damage, that sort of thing.

Just compare what a katana is - not the myth surrounding it, or the historical minutiae - to the other weapons, and derive some playable stats.
A katana is:
metal
sharp
single-edged
curved
not too much under a meter in length

Coincidentally, that also describes a scimitar. About the only major difference is that the katana has ample room for two hands. There're plenty of other differences, but, frankly, they're below the level of granularity you get with the system.

So, a scimitar is a one handed, sharp, curved, single-edged, meter-long metal weapon, and it's given 1d6 18-20/x2 as a medium martial weapon. A katana is basicly similar, but is specifically two-handed - rating it at 1d8 18-20/x2 as a medium exotic weapon (ie: to a scimitar what a bastard sword is to a long sword), would be perfectly reasonable.

I'm fine with this idea, works for me!

mmm..Sabers...nice-
Just to add something I just happened to come across today, coincidently.THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE RAPIER
I found this to be a pretty interesting article.
I know I learned a little bit about rapiers and sabers reading this.
I also kind of think of Katana as being a kind of "long handled saber" now. The article does Not address katanas at all, ^that was just IMHO. (BTW I found this after reading the article about
THE MARTIAL ARTS OF MIDDLE EARTH

 

[Planesdragon]

The only time a 3 pounds sword feels like a 3 pounds sword is when 99% of the weight is in the hilt.

A 3 lbs sword always feels just about like a 3 lbs sword--but it almost never feels like 3 lbs of dead weight.

You're arguing at cross-purposes without really disagreeing.

 

[Xeriar]

Like I said, try wielding a sword and THEN come back here to discuss with people who have. The only time a 3 pounds sword feels like a 3 pounds sword is when 99% of the weight is in the hilt. You know what that gets you? One of them wobbly swords that make noise or a REALLY heavy foil, 'cause if those 3 pounds feel like 3 pounds, there ain't anything in the blade.

Considering that that -should- actually be the case 90% of the time if you know how to weild a weapon at all, I honestly don't see what your point is.

There is no battle sword you could EVER swing that would feel like its weight.

As I mentioned, a friend of mine had a perfectly hilt-balanced sabre. I know you're wrong here, no point in arguing.

The only time a sword will feel like it's true weight is when it's either hanging free or being held straight up. As someone who's done it, I can assure you that there has never been a swordfight where the swords in question stayed in these two positions.

I can't believe you've been trained, then.

Large weapons especially should stay there much of the time.

Eventually you gotta swing, and then you feel it.

In a proper weapon (especially the greatsword), sure, but the return feels quite natural.

 

[Anubis]

Considering that that -should- actually be the case 90% of the time if you know how to weild a weapon at all, I honestly don't see what your point is.



As I mentioned, a friend of mine had a perfectly hilt-balanced sabre. I know you're wrong here, no point in arguing.



I can't believe you've been trained, then.

Large weapons especially should stay there much of the time.



In a proper weapon (especially the greatsword), sure, but the return feels quite natural.

*Sigh*

It's obvious that you have absolutely no hands-on knowledge of weaponry, nor do you have any knowledge of how battles were fought with such weapons. There is obviously no point in arguing with you, as it compares to arguing morality with Nazis.

 

[genshou]

Well, I was originally going to post to tell a few people what idiots they were, but now that I've seen this said by Anubis, I have something else to say.

So it looks like we were both right. You were right about actual weight, mine are actual balanced weights. It does make me feel better, however, that a bonafide professor made the same mistake as I, heh. Nobody's perfect! Now I know about these two weights, though. That DOES, however, prove me right about the weights in the books being pretty close to reality, seeing as the books even state outright that not all encumbrance is weight, but rather how heavy it FEELS. This is why so many things weight so much more than actual real-world weight, because the books give the balanced weight.

Even after Anubis said that, nobody seemed to notice. He said that he was wrong, something no one on the other side has done yet. It takes a greater man to admit he was wrong than iis required for a man to mindlessly defend himself. When will your side figure that out, I wonder? And as an avid backpacker, I must agree with Anubis here. I once carried our troop leader's pack through a narrow canyon when he couldn't get it (with himself) through a tight space (I'm a lot more lean than he is). We measured his pack on a scale before we started, and it came to 67 lbs. Nothing had been taken out of the pack yet, as we had only started out an hour before. Well, I've lifted weights enthusiastically, and I can tell you that his pack did not FEEL like it was 67 lbs. when I was holding it out like that. And my pack weighed 42 lbs. After I rearranged the weight inside the first time we stopped to repel (sp?), it felt a lot lighter than before. Balance is a key issue is sword wielding. I've had enough experience to know that, even if I haven't done it enough to understand all the "finer points" you fellas are arguing about.

My advice to you is this. When you're wrong, admit it. When you opposition is right, praise them for their accomplishment. It's bastards like you that keep us from achieving peace in this world. Without you, we wouldn't even need swords to argue about. So play nice, and remember that D&D is just a game. It's not worth starting a big argument over, or nitpicking all the little details of swordplay. In my limited experience in swordplay (2 months), the thing I learned the most is that there is so much complexity in the real world that we can't try to simulate it in an RPG without simplifying significantly.

Oh, and to those who posted optional rules, such as the 20/x3 critical or the 1d6 + 1d4 damage, thank you. I found those posts useful and enlightening. Might I suggest this: 18-20/x2 critical. Why? Because the sword is based on finesse, like the rapier, scimitar and falchion, not on unwieldy but deadly results like an axe. 19-20 is the same as simple straight blades, which strikes me as a little wrong. Please tell me what you think.