Jetison the power system and use page 42 only

[Sadrik]

Updated Powers Below

This is a finite list of only 10 attack powers but you can make an infinite number of variations from this simple list of attack powers. I would encourage player creativity in defining their attack powers.

Powers will need to be mechanically defined when created. So that a fireball is a fireball and not a coldball or whatever and the damage is ongoing or not and which defense it attacks.

Depending on your role you begin with a different number of attack powers: Defender 2, Leader 3, Striker 3 and Controller 4.

As you advance in level you select more attack powers, 1 for every 4 levels as a defender, 3 for strikers and leaders and 2 for controllers. In this way the defender's added HP and combat abilities offset the controller's lesser.

The general guidelines for which classes can select which powers follows below.

So the PHB1 classes could have access to:
Cleric: Assault, Touch, Wall, Explode
Fighter: Assault, Assail, Touch
Paladin: Assault, Strike, Touch
Ranger: Strike, Assail, Shoot
Rogue: Strike, Assail, Touch
Warlock: Touch, Shoot, Blast, Explode, Summon
Warlord: Assault, Strike, Assail
Wizard: Touch, Shoot, Blast, Burst, Explode, Wall, Summon

Attack Powers
Assault
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: As weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Prime + Proficiency vs. AC
Hit: Weapon + Prime + Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Weapon + Low Limited Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage

Assail
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: As weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Prime + Proficiency vs. AC
Hit: Weapon + Cause a Condition.
Secondary Hit: Weapon + Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Weapon + Low Normal Damage Expression + Prime
Secondary Hit: Weapon + Low Normal Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage
Secondary Miss: half damage

Strike
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: As weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Prime + Proficiency vs. Defense
Hit: Weapon + Prime + Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Weapon + Medium Normal Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage

Touch
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: Reach
Target: One Creature
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: High Limited Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage
Or
Hit: Low Limited Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)
Miss: half damage

Shoot
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Medium Limited Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage
Or
Hit: High Normal Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)
Miss: half damage

Blast
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: 0
Target: Blast 3
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Low Limited Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage
Or
Hit: Medium Normal Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)
Miss: half damage

Burst
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: 10
Target: Burst 1
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Low Limited Damage Expression + Prime or
Miss: half damage
Or
Hit: Medium Normal Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)
Miss: half damage

Explode
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: 0
Target: Close Burst 1
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Low Limited Damage Expression + Prime or
Miss: half damage
Or
Hit: Medium Normal Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)
Miss: half damage

Wall
1 PP
Standard Action
Range: 10
Target: Wall 3
Attack: Prime vs. Defense
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: High Normal Damage Expression + Prime
Miss: half damage
Or
Low Normal Damage + Prime + Ongoing Damage (save ends)
Miss: half damage
Sustain Minor: the wall persists


Summon
1 PP burned
Standard Action
Range: Reach
Target: One Summoned Creature
Attack: Prime +2 vs. AC
Hit: Cause a Condition.
Or
Hit: Low Normal Damage Expression + Prime
Sustain: Minor: the summoned creature persists

Definitions
Defense is Fort/Ref/Will which is defined at power creation.

Range is increased with level. Perhaps +1 per 3 levels, 1-3 +0, 4-6 +1 etc.

Area (blast, burst, explode, wall) is increased with level. I was thinking +1 per 6 levels or something. So 1-6 +0 area and 7-12 +1 area etc.

Hit determines the damage from page 42 or does a condition. In some cases you must decide if the damage is ongoing or not and you must determine the type of damage. Usually the damage is not standard damage if it targets a non-AC defense.

Ongoing damage is 5 +1 per 3 levels you are. On a miss ongoing damage is half and of course save ends still.

Conditions: When creating the power, the player may decide to deal a condition instead of damage. This condition must be approved by the DM and be linked to how your class operates. The following conditions and effects are available: Blinded, Dazed/Stunned, Deafened, Dominated, Dying, Marked, Petrified, Prone, Restrained/Immobilized, Slowed, Surprised/Helpless, Unconscious, Weakened, Move (Pull), Move (Push), Move (Slide), Move (Teleport), or a Unique Condition or Effect.

 

[Sadrik]

After talking about conditions with a friend. When using the system and selecting a condition, the condition could cause some damage too in some cases.

Some subjectivity can enter here though, the DM may allow a small amount of damage to accompany the condition. The concept would be if you have a weak condition and to make it more valid some damage could be added. Rules could be developed in this area or at least guidleines. Any suggestions?

 

[Celebrim]

The idea is sound but the implementation needs alot of work.

Essentially, you are wanting to convert 4e from static class based powers to a point buy spell/power system that would essentially let you configure any class you wanted. Its an interesting project that should be possible, but you don't seem to have enough experience with point buy power/spell systems to translate your interesting idea into something usuable.

1) A power of X level should have a number of points available to spend. Encounter powers and daily powers should have a higher number of points. So the first thing you need to do is provide a table listing the points available to buy goodies with given a power of a particular level.
2) Each type of power should have a cost and effect for each level. For example, turning the attack into a wall or a burst should have a cost which turns the attack from a single target to a wall or burst of a given size depending on the level of burst that can be bought. Inflicting a condition should also have a given cost.
3) If your class is a controller/striker/whatever, it should gain you a discount of some sort on buying powers of a particular sort. For example, controllers should have discount on adding area of effect to their powers, or in adding conditions, or in moving the target. Strikers should have a discount on damage, leaders should have a discount on providing a secondary effect and so forth.

So, for example, a level 15 at will might provide 15 points and you could use that to do something like buy 10 points worth of damage and 5 points worth of area of effect, or 5 points worth of damage and 8 points worth of area of effect and 2 points worth of inflicts a condition. The trick of course is fairly pricing everything, which is always the trick in a point buy system.

 

[Sadrik]

The idea is sound but the implementation needs alot of work.

This is a project and not a finished product. Thanks for your input!

Essentially, you are wanting to convert 4e from static class based powers to a point buy spell/power system that would essentially let you configure any class you wanted. Its an interesting project that should be possible, but you don't seem to have enough experience with point buy power/spell systems to translate your interesting idea into something usuable.

Very close but not precisely. The goal here is to remove the 15 levels of attack powers and have 1 level of attack powers that scale in the same fashion as DMG1 page 42. Area also scales.

So conceptually, you have a few powers that can with special features tacked on by the player and be within the theme of the class can represent a vast array of powers.

I didn't explicitly say this but all these attacks are at-will with a PP cost. The seven levels of utility powers are unchanged and work just like they do in the PHB.

The area that I need the most help in finishing this project is setting the PP costs and how many PP a character gets per day/encounter etc. I have only roughly done this. --> level + prime = PP and each power costs 1. I can see attack powers being an encounter resource. If that is the case how many times can you active an attack power in a fight for 1st level and 30th level? Basically that is the question.

1) A power of X level should have a number of points available to spend. Encounter powers and daily powers should have a higher number of points. So the first thing you need to do is provide a table listing the points available to buy goodies with given a power of a particular level.

I am trying to remove the daily/encounter limiters in place of PP. Everything is at-will. If I were going with the at-will/encounter/daily split on this stuff I would agree with your idea there 100%. My idea is to simplify and make all the attacks the same, at-will with PP cost, with no level requirement (handled through scaling).

This is not being developed to duplicate the complexity of the established power system. Instead this is going try and standardize the mechanics but capture the same diversity in special effects.

2) Each type of power should have a cost and effect for each level. For example, turning the attack into a wall or a burst should have a cost which turns the attack from a single target to a wall or burst of a given size depending on the level of burst that can be bought. Inflicting a condition should also have a given cost.

I can see that changing the cost can allow it to attack more targets generally speaking. What I did was lower the damage when you attack more targets. So in theory, the more effective the attack is damage-wise the fewer the targets you can affect.

As far as conditions go I really need to separate them out in to tiers, level or something. So that you can only create a power with that condition when you get to a certain level/tier.

3) If your class is a controller/striker/whatever, it should gain you a discount of some sort on buying powers of a particular sort. For example, controllers should have discount on adding area of effect to their powers, or in adding conditions, or in moving the target. Strikers should have a discount on damage, leaders should have a discount on providing a secondary effect and so forth.

Hm, I hear you but I think that should be a function of their class theme and not necessarily a mechanical benefit. Theoretically strikers should have a class feature that allows them to deal bonus damage for instance. So their roll should come through their class features.

So, for example, a level 15 at will might provide 15 points and you could use that to do something like buy 10 points worth of damage and 5 points worth of area of effect, or 5 points worth of damage and 8 points worth of area of effect and 2 points worth of inflicts a condition. The trick of course is fairly pricing everything, which is always the trick in a point buy system.

Interesting system idea. That is not what I have done here though.

 

[Alex319]

First of all, do you have to configure the power when you take it, or when you use it? For example, does a fighter just choose "Assault" and then each time, decide which of the two damage options to use (and which condition to inflict if he chooses the first option and it hits) or does he make that choice when he takes the power, and has to take Assault twice if he wants two different powers that fit the Assault template?

You probably want some powers that cost more PP. As written players will rarely run out of PP beyond the first couple levels. For example a 5th level fighter with 18 strength has 9 PP, which refresh every encounter (the only thing that "burns" PP is Summon, which Fighters don't have), and each power costs 1. Very few encounters even last 9 rounds.

It seems like one thing you will definitely need to do is make different conditions "cost" a different amount. Some conditions are MUCH better than others. For example, why would I ever want to Slow someone if I could Stun him instead, and you can Stun someone just as easily as you can Slow them? The solution of restricting certain conditions to certain tiers or levels doesn't solve this problem. If you say for example that you can't take Stun until you get to 15th level, then as soon as you get to 15th level nobody will want to take anything but Stun, and before 15th level Stun won't even be an option. You'll probably want some system where you can choose different conditions, but you have to give up more (like increased PP cost, or reduced damage) in order to get the more powerful conditions. That way there is a meaningful choice between weaker condition at less cost or stronger condition at higher cost.

You probably don't want the scaling of areas by level- that could get nasty fast. The existing powers don't tend to get much bigger areas as you increase, and even a 1 point difference in area (say burst 1 vs. burst 2) is a big difference. An at-will burst 3 at 12th level? That's a 7x7 square area every time.

 

[Celebrim]

The goal here is to remove the 15 levels of attack powers and have 1 level of attack powers that scale in the same fashion as DMG1 page 42. Area also scales.

I hear you, and I understand the attraction of that, but the problem you are going to run into is...

So conceptually, you have a few powers that can with special features tacked on by the player and be within the theme of the class can represent a vast array of powers...This is not being developed to duplicate the complexity of the established power system. Instead this is going try and standardize the mechanics but capture the same diversity in special effects.

I think your implementation is going to fail at your own goal of 'representing a vast array of powers' and 'capturing the same diversity'. Furthermore, even if you come up with something you are satisfied with, most players are not going to be happy with the inability to 'duplicate the complexity of the established power system'. Most players are generally unhappy to exchange some degree of flexibility and 'wow factor' in character creation, for a lesser degree of both. So I think that in practice, if you want your ideas to attract a wide audience, you're going to have to be able to emulate the 4e power system to a large degree.

Whether you want to drop or add encounter powers or what not is just robust system manipulation once you get the system up to that point.

As far as conditions go I really need to separate them out in to tiers, level or something. So that you can only create a power with that condition when you get to a certain level/tier.

And I agree, but, I can't help but note that this is a half-way measure toward implementing a point buy system. I would bet you a $ that by the time you start creating these tables and trying to figure out how a power interacts with different levels of bonus features and damage and such and still get the selections to be balanced and diverse, that you'll end up creating either a point buy system or a defacto one.

Hm, I hear you but I think that should be a function of their class theme and not necessarily a mechanical benefit. Theoretically strikers should have a class feature that allows them to deal bonus damage for instance. So their roll should come through their class features.

Perhaps, but while I'm not an expert on 4e design, I think you'll find that if you analyze existing 4e powers, they don't work like that. Striker classes get powers that do more damage at a given level, for example, but have less access to battlefield control or buffing powers.

Interesting system idea. That is not what I have done here though.

Well, good luck with it then.

 

[Sadrik]

First of all, do you have to configure the power when you take it, or when you use it? For example, does a fighter just choose "Assault" and then each time, decide which of the two damage options to use (and which condition to inflict if he chooses the first option and it hits) or does he make that choice when he takes the power, and has to take Assault twice if he wants two different powers that fit the Assault template?

You have to configure it when you take it.

Exploits do not have to be defined more than I attack with a type of weapon.

You probably want some powers that cost more PP. As written players will rarely run out of PP beyond the first couple levels. For example a 5th level fighter with 18 strength has 9 PP, which refresh every encounter (the only thing that "burns" PP is Summon, which Fighters don't have), and each power costs 1. Very few encounters even last 9 rounds.

The PP cost and how many PP you get needs a serious evaluation. How many times during an encounter should a first level character be able to use an attack?

It might be nice to squeeze my following system in here too, some reconciling would need to happen to get it to fit though:

Power Source Differentiation
To activate an encounter power it costs 2 for an encounter, 3 for a utility and 5 for a daily power.

Adrenaline
Slow to build but endless in its devastation…
Adrenaline powers are not initially available at the beginning of an encounter. Instead access to them builds up as combat endues in the form of adrenaline. Once enough Adrenaline has built up it can be spent it to activate their encounter and daily martial powers. All Adrenaline points fade after an encounter.
If you damage an opponent in a round you add 1 Adrenaline and when you take damage you gain 1 Adrenaline. If you score a critical hit you add an additional Adrenaline.
Classes: Fighter, Ranger, Warlord, Barbarian

Rites
Complex training in the arcane ways…
Rite powers are available to those by way of knowledge of arcane rituals. They require special components to perform and a successful Arcana skill roll. The special components cost must be paid for at each level the practitioner levels up and is equal to the cost of a ritual of that level. The special components represent new magical ingredients that the practitioner uses during the rituals and are enough to get by until the next level. The base Target Number to successfully complete a rite is 15 + ½ your level.
If the components are missing it has -5 to succeed. An encounter power gives -2 and a daily gives -5. Each successful rite gives a 2 Rite penalty points for the rest of the encounter.
Classes: Wizard, Bard, Spellsword, Artificer

Pleas
Relationship with the source of your power is paramount…
Some powers are accessed by constantly pleading with the source of their power. Your divine Plea is ½ your level +10. When using a power they roll a Plea check to receive that power. The roll must be under your Plea total for your prayer to be heard. Use your power as normal with a made roll. You then subtract the powers cost from your Plea, note that Plea can go negative. On a failed Plea roll you may use an at-will power or basic attack instead.
After a short rest you recover your Plea but reduce it by 2 for each short rest you have taken. After an extended rest your divine Plea is reset to its maximum.
Classes: Cleric, Evoker, Avenger, Paladin, Warlock

Attunement
Knowing your environment is important to your power…
Attunement powers come from the world around and being able to tap into that natural power of the environment or simply gaining insight into the battlefield. Beginning with no Attunement practitioners must attune themselves to the environment before they use their powers. Practitioners may never have more than 5/7/9 Attunement depending on their tier. All Attunement points fade after an encounter.
During an encounter practitioners can attune into their environment as a standard action, this adds 1d4 Attunement points.
Classes: Druid, Shaman, Rogue, Warden

Focus
The mind must be focused and sharpened…
Focus powers come from within with sharp dedication and keen will. The mind is fragile and when wielding such power it is important to maintain that bastion or the power cannot be accessed. Practitioners may never have more than 5/7/9 Focus depending on their tier. If a Focus practitioner ever has no Focus they are dazed until the end of their next turn.
A practitioner can take a minor action to focus their mental energies and gain 1 Focus back.
Classes: Monk, Sorcerer

Heroic Feats
Martial Masochist
You gain 2 Adrenaline instead of 1 when you take damage.
Reduced Component Costs
Your component costs are ½ at each level.
Pure Connection
You only lose 1 Plea after each short rest
Primal Tap
You roll now roll 1d6 instead of 1d4 when Attuning.
Meditation
After a short rest where you are able to meditate you gain a temporary +1 Focus point.

Notes
To make these game rules work easily at the table, I would suggest using tokens or poker chips during game play. Perhaps blue chips representing 5 points and white 1 point.

There is some dislike as to how the power system feels overly gamey and does not model how characters power sources would really work. The following rules are presented to allay that and make each source unique and offer a different feel in-game for each power source. Each is better in different situations and hopefully more fun.

Last thing, I know these rules are a bit sweeping. They add differentiation between the power sources! I am well aware that they are not as balanced as before. This is the goal. I want each power source to be better in different situations. Divine power is better when you have lots of time, Arcane power can sustain longer but then dry up for the day and finally martial power is good as the battle wears on. These are all unique and they all seem to be a pretty good payoff story-wise and game-wise by my estimation.

It seems like one thing you will definitely need to do is make different conditions "cost" a different amount. Some conditions are MUCH better than others. For example, why would I ever want to Slow someone if I could Stun him instead, and you can Stun someone just as easily as you can Slow them? The solution of restricting certain conditions to certain tiers or levels doesn't solve this problem. If you say for example that you can't take Stun until you get to 15th level, then as soon as you get to 15th level nobody will want to take anything but Stun, and before 15th level Stun won't even be an option. You'll probably want some system where you can choose different conditions, but you have to give up more (like increased PP cost, or reduced damage) in order to get the more powerful conditions. That way there is a meaningful choice between weaker condition at less cost or stronger condition at higher cost.

Conditions are very powerful. I totally agree this is why I think that some damage added to the weaker conditions is fair. That isn't the worst problem though. Area attacks that cause a condition are clearly way more powerful than the ones that do not. So that needs to be looked at as well.

All things equal ongoing damage reduces damage, having a condition tacked on could work the same. The more powerful the condition the more the damage slides down on the damage expression chart. So that stun, helpless and dying are likely going to be doing 0 damage.

You probably don't want the scaling of areas by level- that could get nasty fast. The existing powers don't tend to get much bigger areas as you increase, and even a 1 point difference in area (say burst 1 vs. burst 2) is a big difference. An at-will burst 3 at 12th level? That's a 7x7 square area every time.

Mmm, agree I think you have the chart slightly off though. Does this seem right?
1-6 +0
7-12 +1
13-18 +2
19-24 +3
25-30 +4

So, at level 12 you would still be doing burst 2 and at level 13 burst 3. Progression could be slowed down to 1-7, +0/8-14, +1/15-21, +2/22-28, +3/29-30, +4.