Jon Tweet - Magic Item Creation

[JDJblatherings]

A scroll of magic missile is campaign changing? And powerful?

yes it increases a 1st level Wizards spellcasting ability by 25% or more.

I really meant the +5 vorpal greatsword when i meant "campaign changing" but characters investing in magicitem creation are expanding character options beyond those available to characters of the same level that don't use those options.

 

[hazel monday]

A bit of a simple conclusion here, but 'If you need to make modifications to the RAW to make RAW work...there's a problem that needs to be fixed.'

Every game I've ever played has had to be modified to fit the group. I don't see the fact that I have to alter the game to me and my player's tastes as a problem unique to D&D.

 

[hopeless]

Magic Item Creation

I don't understand why spending XP on magic item creation is a bad idea. To me, it represents the crafter having to pour in part of his essense to make the item. Magic item creation is a difficult process whereby the crafter must "donate" some of his personal power to make the item.

Not the part i have problems with, the part I don't like is when characters who have previously scorned item creation suddenly turn round start making items when others like my character have been repreatedly using the feat thereby explaining WHY he has those abilities.

I would have preferred them being linked to skills so there would be a reason for such characters being able to turn out powerful items and history to explain where they got the knowledge to do so than to have a cleric create scrolls and potions on numerious occasions and willingly take the hit on xp then find out another character who "may" have created one item (not confirmed) suddenly makes items I don't think he ever had the spells for...

Sorry a sore point but from what I'm hearing my old 3.0 character has been stuffed not only losing his god in 4e faerun (Helm) but also losing out on feats obtained and used only to be set aside because someone doesn't like xmas trees on legs!

This really needs more thought and yet this is another subject in the long run up to 4e that sounds like they've really messed up.

 

[hopeless]

If only!

It's bad because it means PCs are on different xp totals. Which means you have to keep track of xp and some PCs will level up separately. Much like permanent level drain, or resurrection based level loss, is a bad idea.
Spending action points for magic items is better.

If only!
The faerun campaign i used to play in the dm suddenly decided he wouldn't let us know what xp we hd until we went up a level at the time I was the only player making active use of item creation feats and you should have seen him rub his hands together with glee when i asked about brewing potions or scribing scrolls not something he repeated when his brother asked about making permanent magical items something he only did once he reached 12th level and my character had by then lost a level through death by assassination and was raised back down to 9th level...

Never used action pts would suggest no as its worth too much to be wasted on something like that.

 

[Nellisir]

yes it increases a 1st level Wizards spellcasting ability by 25% or more.

Errr, once. And only at first level. The value drops considerably after that, but the cost stays the same.

characters investing in magicitem creation are expanding character options beyond those available to characters of the same level that don't use those options.

That's true of any feat. A character with exotic weapon proficiency is using options not available to identical characters without exotic weapon proficiency, so how much xp do you charge for feats?

 

[JDJblatherings]

That's true of any feat. A character with exotic weapon proficiency is using options not available to identical characters without exotic weapon proficiency, so how much xp do you charge for feats?

Well there are only so many feats available to a character at any level according to class, it's already factored in as an exp "cost" (actually a threshold).

One can hadn a magical item to another person but you can't hand a feat to another person (is there an "empathic talent transfer" feat ???).

I'm all for magic item creation havign some "permanent cost" to the character involved, exp expenditure is one of the wimpiest I've seen that still makes soem sense. I've played plenty of games where a magic item drained a point of CON per + or level. Magic items become rare in such a campaign and it still works.

 

[Voadam]

Except, of course, the cleric just might be making scrolls and potions and wonderous items himself. Oh, and cleric healing DOES cost xp (Restoration/Raise Dead/Ressurection).

Except that it doesn't. Restoration, raise dead, and resurrection have no xp cost to cast them. Expensive gp material components but no xp. You might be thinking of greater restoration or commune.

The fighter is putting him/herself between the fragile wizard and danger, thus is more likely to die and lose xp that way. So yeah, the wizard MAY be a level behind but so might be the fighter.

I would disagree that unarmored d4 HD wizards with poor physical saves die less often while adventuring than other PCs.

And lets not forget that in some games, the craft feats are the only reliable source of magic items, other than finding them as loot. Not every campaign has on-demand access to magic items.

Meaning it is more important for the wizard to sacrifice his xp for other party members and fall behind in levels.

It is your opinion that this subsystem is "crappy", not a fact,

I share that opinion

and this so-called "crappy" system was heavily tested and has done better than any other D&D-based item creation rules to date.

I feel it is superior to take out the xp cost entirely and leave it otherwise untouched.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Unless you consider the fact, that PCs with a lower level get more XP. If you time correctly, you can come out even.

Consider a wizard close to the next level (i.e. next encounter will do the level-up). He reduces his XP, so he'll not level up, but by the next encounter, he WILL level up and since he gets more than usual, chances are, that that lag will be small or he'll even come out even. AFAIK, if you do that very precisely, you can even come out ahead.

I actually use that as the basis for a "free XP" mechanic IMC. Much like the Eberron Artificer, it provides a fixed XP/level that can be used. It works out for me b/c it cuts down on book keeping. Plus, the PCs are now some of the most powerful people (21st level) so they have trouble finding gear.

With ~13.5 encounters per level, each level requiring 1,000xp/level, you can estimate an average encounter is worth ~75xp/level. An encounter that is 1 CR higher than your level is worth half again as much, or ~113xp/level for a difference of ~38xp/level. I give out 25xp/level, which means the wizard would catch up the next encounter, which pretty much isn't worth worrying about in return for the advantages.

 

[kigmatzomat]

See, I find the problem with RAW is that the game can't actually be played RAW. At least not at anything higher than level 12.
I don't let my campaigns run higher than Lvl12, and I don't let my players shop at the magic wal-mart all willy nilly.
With these modifications to RAW, magic item creation is no problem.

Big ol' can o' worms right there.

Having been in a couple of RAW games where everything did work at levels above 12 (currently up to 21st level per RAW), perhaps you'd like to start, or find, a thread that discusses the "unplayable RAW above 12th level." I suspect there's either an aspect of the mechanics you haven't noticed or have house ruled away causing the imbalance.

 

[Anguish]

I've got a different viewpoint. Assuming it's always up to the DM to decide if any given item is permitted into the game, either by purchase or by craft, why penalize a character for doing something creative?

If it didn't cost a (bunch of) feat slots, and if it didn't cost XP, I'd gladly have most of my characters craft most of their own or each others' gear. Purely for the personalization/coolness factor.

My suggestion would be to eliminate feat requirements, eliminate XP expenditure, relax the time investment requirement, and increase the gp cost to 100% of normal sale purchase price. If my fighter pays the party wizard to make his mwk longsword +1 flaming instead of Ye Randome Nameless Smithe, isn't that better? If my druid takes some time to make her own scroll of something useful again, isn't that better than having her go shopping for groceries, shoes, and magic stuff?

We are supposed to be playing heroes. Paragons of ability and the upper echelon of skill. The party rogue should be chugging potions lovingly brewed by the party cleric.

A final point on the side-topic of XP/gp cost equivalency. I'm not allowed to throw away my sorcerer's material wealth and have him be a level or two higher, so why should I be allowed to throw away a level or portion of one to make a wand of something I can already do?