Judgement calls vs "railroading"

number 1 above has my interest - xp for messing up! :)

The rest, though...the whole idea of bonds and rewards for adhering to them really doesn't fly with me; it seems an artificial way of forcing characters to get along.

And number 4 flies in the face of my unshakeable belief that xp for things like combat etc. should only go to those who actually participated in it. That said, in this system it seems xp are trying to reflect something different (not sure exactly what) than I'm used to; I've always seen xp as a game-mechanical attempt to reflect the character's learning curve. (side note: this is also why I rather detest the idea of giving xp as a player reward e.g. for bringing snacks to the game)

That all said, however:

This looks good (well, except for the relationships part; that could get messy).

Four comments:

1) Since you are keen on "xp as process simulator for learning curve", given the adage of "we learn more from our failures than we do our successes" (unless you don't subscribe to that), it would seem that you would be a fan of "xp for messing up"?

2) What exactly is "xp for gold" modeling? If you solve a myriad of death defying puzzles, strategically map and explore a dizzying engineer marvel, special-ops-style storm the den of the horrific denizens such that nary a scratch is incurred, yet your huge score of gold is disintegrated by the Beholder boss at the end of the dungeon (which you subsequently slay...but have little to show for it)...what exactly is happening in the fiction? Why do our adventurers go from leveling up to status quo?

3) What the xp system is trying to accomplish is general Skinner Box Reward Cycle psychology while rewarding risky, emotionally-invested, genre-coherent action declarations by the players (from which emerges the behavioral portfolio of the PCs).

4) @Campbell took care of the Bonds question. Bonds aren't prescriptive constraints like classic D&D Alignment (neither is Alignment for that matter - see 3 above). They are questions to be answered or statements to be verified (or upturned), in play, about relationships. "Resolving a Bond" (done at End of Session after both players agree it has taken place) just means that we've achieved the answering, verification, or upturning. Mark xp and write a new Bond (perhaps signifying the change of state if there was one).

So, quite player-centric (as opposed to DM-centric).

Are all the characters' bonds etc. known to the other players, or can some or all be kept secret? (e.g. my character Bjorn might have as a bond a secret crush on your character Twylia; not much of a secret if you-as-Twylia's-player know about it)

One thing it seems to deny you as DM is the ability to make stuff up that breaks the rules, which in traditional D&D we've always kind of had. Seems a bit constraining.

Lanefan

As to the first:

The text is entirely silent on whether Bonds have to be known to all the players. Since the text is silent, that means that you would handle that however you'd like as a table (basically just social contract). It certainly isn't incoherent for Dungeon World for the PCs to have secrets and a bit of intra-party strife/disagreement. The resolution mechanics support that.

On the second:

It doesn't "seem to deny you the ability to break the rules", it explicitly forbids it! The first page on Gamesmastering has "Follow the Rules" as a primary tenant!

But what if you don't need to break the rules? What if awesome, exciting, genre-coherent stuff just happens (all the time) by simply following the rules, following your principles, being creative, and merely playing the game?

Where is the romance with/need for rule-breaking then?
 
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What exactly is "xp for gold" modeling?
I'm not sure what XP system [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] uses, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't use "XP for gold".

Gygax makes it clear in his DMG that the classic XP system doesn't model anything.

The only XP system I know that really tries to model learning is the RM one - which I would put under the label "you learn from hard field training"!

The classic model for learning is, of course, RQ (after using a skill - in the standard rules, it is succeeding, but that could easily be drifted) make a % check to improve (where the % chance of improvement = 100-current bonus).

BW uses a system superficially similar to RQ, though with enough changes to produce quite a different dynamic in play.

what if you don't need to break the rules? What if awesome, exciting, genre-coherent stuff just happens (all the time) by simply following the rules, following your principles, being creative, and merely playing the game?

Where is the romance with/need for rule-breaking then?
Quite.
 

Real quick notes here; I'll get to some other replying tomorrow sometime...
2) What exactly is "xp for gold" modeling?
I've no idea, which might be part of why I've never given xp for gold. (with the lone exception sometimes being xp-for-value-stolen by a Thief)

3) ... Skinner Box Reward Cycle psychology ...
Whatever this is...never heard of it. Explain, please?

But what if you don't need to break the rules? What if awesome, exciting, genre-coherent stuff just happens (all the time) by simply following the rules, following your principles, being creative ...
Problem here is this assumes both my principles and my creativity are willing to be bound by rules. One of the joys of RPGs (as opposed not just to other games but to almost any other social activity) is that in many ways the creativity side has few if any borders at all. And, oftentimes following my principles as DM leads directly to coming up with something the rules as written simply don't support...so which wins, rules or principles?

Where is the romance with/need for rule-breaking then?
Hey, maybe I'm just more Chaotic than you are. :)

Lan-"agent of chaos"-efan
 

I'm not sure what XP system [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] uses, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't use "XP for gold".

Gygax makes it clear in his DMG that the classic XP system doesn't model anything.

Yup. Its interesting. I think "XP for gold", the "Wandering Monster Clock", and "Monster Reaction Rolls" are probably D&D's greatest tech from AD&D through 3.x. I wonder how many people who play those versions of D&D ignore one or all of them?

The only XP system I know that really tries to model learning is the RM one - which I would put under the label "you learn from hard field training"!

The classic model for learning is, of course, RQ (after using a skill - in the standard rules, it is succeeding, but that could easily be drifted) make a % check to improve (where the % chance of improvement = 100-current bonus).

BW uses a system superficially similar to RQ, though with enough changes to produce quite a different dynamic in play.

Yup. And, of course, Torchbearer uses the BW model and Dungeon World's was inspired by it (BW).


We're about to learn!
 


Real quick notes here; I'll get to some other replying tomorrow sometime...I've no idea, which might be part of why I've never given xp for gold. (with the lone exception sometimes being xp-for-value-stolen by a Thief)

Fascinating. Why not? Because you want to model learning curve? How is xp rewarded in your game?

Whatever this is...never heard of it. Explain, please?

Sorry. Operant Conditioning Chamber. Subject animal (in this case humans) is in a controlled environment. Subject animal has a basic need. Some sort of apparatus is introduced to obtain that need (classically a lever or a switch for food or water). Subject animal learns to manipulate said apparatus to obtain fulfillment of basic need.

So here we're talking about the game's basic need to address premise and play risky married to the player's basic need of character progression and chosen archetype manifesting in the fiction.

Reward Cycle.

Problem here is this assumes both my principles and my creativity are willing to be bound by rules. One of the joys of RPGs (as opposed not just to other games but to almost any other social activity) is that in many ways the creativity side has few if any borders at all. And, oftentimes following my principles as DM leads directly to coming up with something the rules as written simply don't support...so which wins, rules or principles?

Hey, maybe I'm just more Chaotic than you are. :)

Lan-"agent of chaos"-efan

Again, fascinating. Are you talking about stuff related to GM agency or player agency? Or are you talking about stuff like genre mash-up?

Let's imagine a scenario where you're gaming and all of the stuff that you want to happen in actual play is just plain happening by following the rules (not subordinating them). The GM isn't exercising any more agency than the system requires of them (and the system states that their agency ends where the players' agency and the system's agency begins). The GM isn't bearing any extra cognitive workload beyond what the system requires of them (so they're mentally fresh and vigorous to flex their creativity muscle to the max and able to sustain it).

What would be the value in upending that equilibrium?

Or do you think that equilibrium is absolutely impossible to achieve by following a system's rules?

Or are you saying something else?

Can you give a hypothetical play example of something that you believe is completely impossible for a principled system (with coherent/robust rules) to achieve?
 


Fascinating. Why not? Because you want to model learning curve? How is xp rewarded in your game?
In brief*:
1 - combat: those who help out get xp, those who did nothing or who weren't even there get nothing (one could argue those who were there but did nothing still learned, but I intentionally do it this way to encourage involvement rather than sitting back)
2 - significant new experiences other than combat, e.g. the first time someone of importance (king, deity, etc.) is met, or the first time a major spell gets cast
3 - encounter avoidance (but only if they both a) know the encounter was there to be avoided and b) don't later go back and deal with the encounter, to avoid double-dipping)
4 - significant other actions e.g. disarming a particularly difficult trap, finding a creative way out of a tight spot, risky scouting, etc.
5 - successful negotiations or social interactions of relevance
6 - "dungeon bonus" given at the end of each adventure to reflect both a) the experience of having completed the mission and b) to handwave all the little tiny bits of xp they'd otherwise pick up during day-to-day adventuring that I can't be bothered to calculate
7 - there's probably a couple of minor or infrequent things I'm forgetting (one I just remembered is Thief xp for value stolen - in my current campaign this has come up maybe two or three times in nine years of play)

1 4 and 6 above are (usually) given individually i.e. not everyone gets the same amount. For 6 it's usually based on how much of the adventure you were around for thus a character who joined halfway through will only get (usually) half dungeon bonus.

2 and 3, while sometimes variable, are more often given equally to all who were present.

5 is tricky - usually the character(s) who actually do the talking get a bit more but everyone gets some assuming they had input ahead of time.

By far the majority of xp earned come from combat and dungeon bonus, though it varies from one adventure to the next - one might be lots of stealth work while the next is a full-on slugfest.

I give them out now and then - maybe once per 4 or 5 sessions on average - unless someone is close to bumping in which case it's done much more often; and in any case the characters don't get xp for actions on any given day until they wake up the next morning.

* - well, maybe not so brief :)

Sorry. Operant Conditioning Chamber. Subject animal (in this case humans) is in a controlled environment. Subject animal has a basic need. Some sort of apparatus is introduced to obtain that need (classically a lever or a switch for food or water). Subject animal learns to manipulate said apparatus to obtain fulfillment of basic need.

So here we're talking about the game's basic need to address premise and play risky married to the player's basic need of character progression and chosen archetype manifesting in the fiction.

Reward Cycle.
OK.

Again, fascinating. Are you talking about stuff related to GM agency or player agency? Or are you talking about stuff like genre mash-up?
There's an 'or' in there, so I can just answer yes. :)

Genre mash-up is an obvious: if the rules say no laser rifles but I want to chuck in a laser rifle, in it goes. If the rules say a player or DM doesn't have the right (or the agency) to do x but it makes more sense to me that they should, the rules lose. The reverse is also true: if the rules give more agency to one or the other than makes sense to me, the rules again lose.

Let's imagine a scenario where you're gaming and all of the stuff that you want to happen in actual play is just plain happening by following the rules (not subordinating them). The GM isn't exercising any more agency than the system requires of them (and the system states that their agency ends where the players' agency and the system's agency begins).
Up to here, if it's working all is good. However...

The GM isn't bearing any extra cognitive workload beyond what the system requires of them (so they're mentally fresh and vigorous to flex their creativity muscle to the max and able to sustain it).
If I'm the DM and my creativity leads me to think of something outside the rules (e.g. a laser rifle) then suddenly the rules are constraining me - if I let them. But in the philosophy I go by, where it's the DM's game and she can do what she likes, this can never be an issue. Flip side, however, is the DM has to take care and be responsible about what she's doing or changing to avoid butchering her own game.

What would be the value in upending that equilibrium?
Variable, dependent on too many factors to list. But: the key is that if the rules say not to do x and you thus never try doing x you'll never know whether doing x is in fact better or worse than not doing it. (this applies to the player side as well - 3e's 'a rule for everything' design tends to discourage such out-of-the-box thinking, which to me is a shame) My take as DM is to just try it, knowing that it'll either work or it won't, and if it doesn't just be prepared to admit to a mistake and move on. (which is how I go about it when I kitbash the system - it's either gonna work or it isn't but I won't know until I try)

Or do you think that equilibrium is absolutely impossible to achieve by following a system's rules?
Equilibrium is very possible to achieve within a (halfway-well-designed) system's rules. However, that equilibrium may or may not come at cost of either a) constraining creativity on one or both sides of the screen or b) boredom. EDIT: or c) frustration, as either the DM or one or more players has come up with a better rule or way of improving play.

And we haven't even got to houserules yet.

Can you give a hypothetical play example of something that you believe is completely impossible for a principled system (with coherent/robust rules) to achieve?
Offhand, not really; as I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "a principled system" as opposed to any other system. But the genre-breaking element is an obvious place to start. Hypothetically if the rules state there are no "modern" elements included in the game how can I then run "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" or an equivalent? I either have to make up rules for it myself (and I've no idea how these sort of systems react to kitbashing or houseruling), or abandon the idea of running that adventure (thus, I as DM am constrained in what I can do). Neither is an ideal solution, though my own preference would be to make up the rules, hope for the best, and plow ahead with it.

Lanefan
 
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I would add morale and exploration turns as great D&D tech that is often ignored to the game's detriment.
Second the motion re morale. Not as much of a fan of hard-coded exploration turns; I've always been more freeform about that sort of thing. Never liked (and thus never used) xp-for-gold. Wandering monsters and monster reaction - again, I'm way more freeform than the system would probably want me to be.

Two other old mechanics that I think the newer editions are worse for not having at least in some form are a) system shock and-or resurrection rolls and b) cleric matrix vs. undead.

Lan-"and don't get me started on changes to spellcasting over the editions or we'll be here all day"-efan
 

I find that the notion of "dissociated mechanics" is not a very helpful one, because it tries to equate a species of mechanic - metagame mechanics - with a mental/cognitive state - "dissociation" - as if such a correlation is necessary or at least typical, when in fact it's rather idiosyncratic (eg many D&D players use hp, which in any but the strongest "hit points as meat" approach to play have a strong metagame element to them, but don't suffer an "dissociation").

I see a difference between an abstract model simulating an in-game concept (e.g. HP as an abstract model of resiliency) and a mechanic where the IC and OOC consequences of a player's decisions diverge (e.g. failure searching IC leads to not finding the mace/discovering that the brother has always been evil, but OOC visibly causes brother to have always been evil).

But if you don't like the analogy because you don't like the underlying terminology, that's fine. To rephrase my point without the analogy: the difference between the IC and OOC consequences of player actions in your style of play seems inconsistent to me. That inconsistency makes me viscerally expect your campaign itself to be inconsistent, even though intellectually I know it's often possible to change things on the fly to that degree and still keep the campaign consistent, because I do it too.

But, as I have already posted several times upthread, there is (in general) no need for the process of authoring fiction to in any way mirror the causal processes that occur in the gameworld eg an author may think of a character, which then causes the author to think of the character's parents - whereas in the fiction, the parents were the cause of the character, not vice . This happens all the time in RPGing. Eg the GM make up a village for the 1st level PCs. They discover a smuggling plot. This leads to questions - where do the smugglers come from, where do they get their stuff? The GM then makes up more of the gameworld, and it continues and grows.

I'm doing that also at the moment of action resolution. It's got no more general tendency to lead to inconsistency at that point that at the point of framing and fleshing out context, as in the smuggling example.

I agree with your conclusion. I just had a hard time reconciling that agreement with my visceral dislike to making that kind of change be a visible consequence of action resolution. I shared my theory as to why I felt one thing and thought another as a possible explanation for where the "inconsistency" complaints against your style might be coming from.

As far as the "disconnect" - I don't see any disconnect. The player learns just as the PC does. And the player is not authoring his/her misfortune any more than the PC is (except in the sense that the player, like the PC, chose to search the ruins rather than just bask in old memories).

The player and the PC learn at the same time that the brother was always evil, but the player also knows that the brother was always evil because of a failed die roll. That's the disconnect.

For reference, I might have decided at the same point in the game you did to make the brother have always been evil. At my table usually the players won't be aware of when such decisions are made, and so the player knowledge matches the PC knowledge, and there's no disconnect. But even if the players are aware (or become aware) they'll know that the cause of the change was that I realized it would make for a better story and a more enjoyable game, not the PC's failure.

xetheral said:
Most of my behind-the-scenes changes are made to increase player agency, not stymie it.
Can you elaborate?

Happy to. Here are some examples:

  • If my players think to search a very clever hiding spot that I hadn't thought to hide anything in, I might add a reward or something special to that location on the fly.
  • If my players come up with a solution to a mystery that makes for a better, more exciting story than what I'd had in mind, I might change the solution to match.
  • If my players make a logical (but incorrect) deduction about the game world from exisiting evidence, I might change the game world to match their deduction.
  • If the players make a good plan that would fail due to factors they happened not to learn, I might modify those factors.
  • If the players make a good plan that depends on obtaining a particular resource, I might make that resource obtainable (although not necessarily easily), even if it arguably shouldn't have been available were I ruling "impartially".

Of course, in all of these situations I also might not make a change (and usually don't). My goal isn't to make everything the PCs do succeed--that would be boring. But when I do make on-the-fly changes my goal is to facillitate the PC's attempts to interact with the game world, not to shut down those attempts.
 

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