Judgement calls vs "railroading"

[pemerton]

Different goals as a party are fine and will be DMed

But - unless I've misunderstood - (1) depend upon the PCs gaining information about their possibility in the course of play (eg talking to NPCs), and therefore (2) depend upon the GM deciding what is part of the fiction, what the various NPCs whom the PCs are in contact with know and might communicate, etc.

 

[Maxperson]

OK, so now you're agreeing with me that in [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s games there are important limits on the shared fiction that are being driven by the GM.

No. Driven by the DM and players both. I have yet to play with a player who is so self-centered that he expects me to run an entire second game just for him. The social contract has determined that this is a group game, not a 4 solo games run simultaneously.

 

[Maxperson]

There seems to be some sort of extreme disconnect here. I want to try and close the gap.

For my part, I am talking about the capacity of the players to contribute to outcomes in the shared fiction: the stuff that is taking place at the table.

This has (I think, at least in general), two components: action declaration for the player's PC; and resolution of those declared actions.

You two seem to be focusing on the action declaration: nothing stops the player declaring "I set off to the north to take over the barbarian tribes there."

I am focusing on the resolution. If the GM's response to that action declaration is "OK, your PC is now an NPC and all that northern barbarian stuff is going to take place off-screen" then the player did not get to shape the shared fiction in any meaningful way. There was no shared fiction to which the player contributed by the play of his/her PC, in which the PC endeavoured to become king of the northern barbarians. From the player's point of view, it was a game-ending move. (The fact that s/he might rejoin the game with a [-]new hand[/-] - sorry, new PC - doesn't matter for present purposes.)

What makes you think that "OK, your PC is now an NPC and all that northern barbarian stuff is going to take place off-screen" is what I am talking about? What I am talking about involves the entire group going through many adventures and roleplaying opportunities where they shape things into that end goal. Once the goal is achieved the newly minted King will become an NPC and the rest of the group will move on.

 

[pemerton]

I have yet to play with a player who is so self-centered that he expects me to run an entire second game just for him.

Who said anything about a "second game"? Why is becoming a magistrate or a mercenary leader at odds with playing the first game? (It's not as if this is foreign territory for D&D - qv Lord fighters tc.)

 

[Maxperson]

But - unless I've misunderstood - (1) depend upon the PCs gaining information about their possibility in the course of play (eg talking to NPCs), and therefore (2) depend upon the GM deciding what is part of the fiction, what the various NPCs whom the PCs are in contact with know and might communicate, etc.

Number 2 is where you are going wrong. The DM doesn't make all of those decisions. The players can tell the DM that they are going to find a sage that knows about wild men in order to find out where those barbarians live, as well as what their beliefs and social structure consist of. They may or may not be able to find such a sage in the place they are at, but they would be able to go find one somewhere and get things going. The DM is not sitting behind the screen going, "I don't want any of them to becoming barbarian kings, so no NPC will know what they need.". The adventure to become barbarian kings is collaborative in that manner. They players have created the idea to go see the NPC that must exist somewhere, and the DM creates the path to get there.

 

[Maxperson]

Who said anything about a "second game"? Why is becoming a magistrate or a mercenary leader at odds with playing the first game? (It's not as if this is foreign territory for D&D - qv Lord fighters tc.)

Because while player A runs the city as a magistrate, players B-D are going out into the world to continue adventuring. It would require the DM to run a separate game for player A who is now stuck in the city being a magistrate. That or run a separate game where player A is a wandering magistrate going from city to city, while players B-D go into the wilds and other countries adventuring. Players B-D didn't sign up to be a magistrate and aren't staying in 1 city forever, or just wander from city to city.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That's a pretty clear explication of what I am trying to get at as a "player-driven" game. The fact that - as GM - I chose the dwelling place as a tower rather than (say) a house atop a cliff, with windows overlooking the ocean, is (from my point of view) a secondary consideration: the fact that there are multiple ways of narrating a world that is shaped by the choices the players have made doesn't change the fact that it is the players' choices that are driving the narration.

Sure. But just because player choice and consequence there of is your primary reason for framing things the way you do does not make the process free of GM Force. You can certainly come up with options that meet the primary need but that also steer the story in a way you prefer.

Honestly, the descriptions you guys are sharing of the systems you are citing don't really sound like my cup of tea at all. I actually enjoy the role of the DM in 5E, as flawed a system as it may be. I don't think that the role as described requires that the game be a railroad, nor do I think that the Powered by the Apocalypse system and other similar game systems are entirely free from GM fiat. I can agree that the mechanics attempt to minimize such concerns...however, I don't really agree that the concern should be that strong at all.

I can imagine a game where the GM uses techniques to force his vision of the game upon the group. Where player choice is undermined or subverted by the GM's whim. If I had suffered through a game like that...or if as GM I found the job daunting or to be too much work...then I could see the appeal of such a system.

But in my experience, those are not areas of concern that need to be addressed.

 

[billd91]

But - unless I've misunderstood - (1) depend upon the PCs gaining information about their possibility in the course of play (eg talking to NPCs), and therefore (2) depend upon the GM deciding what is part of the fiction, what the various NPCs whom the PCs are in contact with know and might communicate, etc.

Or there's a bit of stuff sprinkled about by the DM and others suggested by the players. The games don't have to be one or the other.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Nagol , @hawkeyefan , @Campbell (and of course anyone else who has any interest in discussing this angle of the conversation), I'm attaching a couple of hard move examples (not including the two upthread) for discussion/analysis of the phenomenon that Nagol has presented above (GM Force as soft-balling hard moves into soft moves). The conversation could be either:

"Manbearcat, you soft-balled this hard move and in doing so may have used GM Force for a System Agency and/or Player Agency subordinating outcome that you wanted."

or

"While this isn't a case of a soft-ball, this is what a soft-ball would have looked like in this scenario."

---

1) Here is a good start. The sun is setting. A blizzard is on the horizon and the Ranger PC follows tracks right into it. She is seeking out a deaf, PTSD dog who is the only survivor of a ruined settlement. It was trapped in the settlement's main hall where the survivors appear to have barred the door to protect them from what was outside. The PCs found no settlers in the main hall. They did, however, find a giant, disgusting aberration and the terrified dog (which fled into the wintery landscape). Now, the Ranger can talk to animals. So the PCs want her to find this dog (while the other PC is scouring the main hall horror-house for records) and tease out its account.

Saerie

I thank Otthor for the help in getting Rawr settled in and for the quiver-replenishing bundle of arrows. Before he leaves with his ominous last words regarding the fire, I relay my agreement with the plan. I will do everything I can to find the dog and bring her back with me.

I move to the last known spot where I saw the dog; the crest of the hill which overlooks the drop into the settlement. Somewhere beyond the now-open gates is where the the old canine currently lies. Depending on how terrified she was, which may be very, she would be either quite near or quite far. The snow is thick enough here that finding the spot where I last lost sight of her is a triviality. But to track the old girl down may be another thing entirely. The wind is already steadily picking up in the exposed tundra up here. I wrap my scarf over my face and pull my hood up over my head.

Hunt and Track (Wis)

5, 3 + 2 = 10

I follow the creature’s trail until there’s a significant change in its direction or mode of travel. I also determine what caused the trail to end.

GM

The wind dries your eyes to the point of pain. Your training ensures that you easily pick up the odd lope of the dog, its gait clearly weary, hobbled by age and its recent torment. It must know the territory well as it appears to have made a go for a line of snowdrifts that it could dig into and hide behind as the gusts pick up speed.

When you spot her, she has dug into the side of the drift facing away from the wind. Laboring over the effort, her tongue is out as she is in full pant. She doesn't notice your presence and as you watch her, you can see the fear in her eyes and the hunger betrayed by her gaunt form.

Saerie

I slowly get into her line of sight so as not to startle her. When she sees me, I'll carefully pull out some dried meat from my pack. I'll get down on all fours, assume a non-threatening posture, and entreat her to a free meal, given in good faith.

Parley (Cha)

My leverage is food for the starving dog.

5, 1 - 1 = 5.

1 xp

GM

His ears perk up. The dog looks interested in your offering. However, if he is deaf he doesn't need ears to perceive the thundering herd of reindeer bearing down on you. Like you, the dog can feel it in the ground. Your mind is ushered back to the Winter Wolf's words regarding a maddened realm near the two great bodies of water in the highlands where "...herds of reindeer would stampede, tearing each other, and themselves, to pieces." Whether they're simply running from the fury of the storm that is hot on their tails or deranged creatures intent on your harm is impossible to say at this distance (far, 10 creatures).

The scared dog abruptly bounds out of his carved hole and rushes to your position where he might see the obscured threat. When the canine sees what is on the way, it tucks its tail between its legs and runs in a circle behind you, looking to you with uncertain eyes.

The reindeer are closing fast.

---

2) Later in Earthmaw, the parley takes place with the Hobgoblin King in his chambers with his lieutenant and a retinue of guards (which would become mind-puppets of the now-advanced Aboleths). The Parley move yielded a 7-9 (the leverage being that the King was no longer in control of his kingdom...the 7-9 yielding that he would buy-in, but the PCs would have to prove this NOW). This triggered an attack from several Aboleths from the fissures/vents of the chamber.

Rawr is the Ranger's bear companion. The sheepdog is the dog mentioned above (now a cohort).

Saerie

Rawr and I have the aboleth. When I'm down on my knee drawing my bow, I slap the sheepdog on the rump and point to Otthor and his plight. The old boy gets the picture immediately and, with his usual hitch in his giddy-up, he takes off to defend his new companion.

As Rawr wades into melee with the aboleth that Otthor just tore from the ceiling, I see him cringe and shake his head momentarily. But I've seen him stick his snout dead into a bee-hive and eat dozens of stings for his trouble. This creature's sickening aura will do little to my stout friend.

An arrow flies from my bow.

Volley (Dex)
6, 1 + 2 (- 1 for peace-bond) = 8.

I'll choose to put myself in danger as described by the GM as my complication.

d8 (6) damage + 3 for Rawr. 9 - 1 = 8 damage to the aboleth.

GM

Your arrow flies true as Rawr's jaws clinch on black rubbery flesh. The creature reacts violently to the terrible maiming, it's alien, vertically stacked red eyes almost making expressions that are familiar to you. Tentacles fly wide, shoving against Rawr, trying to extract him. Two more jolt toward you, threatening to slam into you and take you from your feet!

Saerie

I rush right toward the stone table, slapping the tentacles hard with my bow as they approach me. I attempt to leap upon it, then tight-rope sprint its length in an effort to outrun the creature's reach!

Defy Danger (Str)
2, 2 + 0 = 4

Marked 1 xp.

GM

You reach the table but as you leap upon it, the two tentacles grasp your legs, upending you so you smash hard onto your back, cracking your skull on the stone. The creature begins to draw your prone form toward it, making all kinds of noise as your body and kicking legs knock over the drinks and soup bowls from your meal.

Roll 1d8 + 2 damage vs yourself [Forceful tag].

---

3) Now here is a good one for this as it is definitely area for discussion/analysis on the topic at hand. Note, the time for using a soft move in a hard move place is (according to the DW GMing section: "When you have a chance to make a hard move you can opt for a soft one instead if it better fits the situation." Spout Lore and Discern Realities are going to often be these case here. This is because (a) the stakes aren't explicitly as high as other moves and (b) "Make a move that follows from the fiction" is typically going to be "Reveal an unwelcome truth" or "Show signs of an approaching threat). Sometimes a hard move does make sense (such as when time is utterly essential or if you're reading an ancient mystical text or you're in a heated parley where a false read or poor/misconstruable social cues could make things go bad).

So then (oh, for reference, "Lucky" is the name of the dog they found in the beginning of their adventures. He unfortunately perished to a great fall while the group was navigating a similar ridge to that below. However, Saerie ventured into the Spirit Realm with the help of some mystics and communed with his animal spirit. She can now summon his spirit form into the material world (a move she took upon leveling)):

Saerie

With the hounds and huntsman traversing the trail the cuts through the middle of the snowy courtyard, I’m going to have to find an alternative route to climb the face. I can’t afford to trudge through the knee-dip or hip-deep snow. That would give me away to my enemies. I need to spot the best and most isolated location to climb the face and I need to also find the most inconspicuous route to get there with shallow snow.

Discern Realities (Wis)
6, 3 + 2 = 11

3 questions and + 3 forward when acting upon them.

• What should I be on the lookout for?
• What here is useful or valuable to me?
• What here is not what it appears to be?

GM

1) The ridge that encircles the courtyard of this place leads to the slope on the left and the right. As you’d expect, the snow sheds from this ridge and gathers at the base on both sides. Therefore, the top of the ridge is little more than toe-deep.

2) The left ridge is icy, steep and directly below it is a 60 ft drop into a valley covered with razor-sharp rocks. Here you risk grave injury if things go wrong. It flows organically up onto the slope and spills out a bit above the altitude of the position you’re looking for over the central cave. You would then need to make a small climb down to the position where you could trigger the avalanche and have Far range to the other 2 caves. The right ridge is a much more hospitable. It takes a gentle jog around the courtyard but empties out smack dab near the sentinels on the right. Even with invisibility, if things go wrong in your climb, you could potentially be detected. What’s more, that face requires a difficult and dangerous 2 stage climb; a near vertical ascent above the position you want to be and then a tough descent down and around to the avalanche-trigger spot.

3) The hewn path of the winding central trail is flanked by hugely high, seemingly precarious snowbanks. 15 feet in some areas. They would bury people on the trail alive if they were triggered to collapse. Sure enough, you see the ends of large ropes protruding from the snowbanks where they terminate and the trail gives entrance to the base of the mountain. It is doubtful that those ropes serve an engineering purpose such as reinforcement of the snowbanks…

Saerie

I think to myself ‘those guys assaulting the left cavern will have to transit the central trail…it looks steep enough to give them some cover, but if I don’t take out the middle group they’ll be sitting ducks…”

I ponder a very short moment, knowing that the hounds will be here soon, then I decisively clamber on top of the ridge leading to the left. This is too eerily familiar. I know he cannot be hurt by such a fall but I don’t even want to put him in this situation. I pat Lucky on his head and whisper “…stay with Otthor my friend. The way I go is too dangerous. I will see you soon.”

I risk the narrow, icy, climbing ridge and the deadly fall into the rocky valley below. I move slowly, one-foot in front of the other on the narrow ridge, center of gravity low, as sure-footedly as I can.

Defy Danger (Dex)
5, 3 + 3 (+ 1 from DR) = 12

GM

Your nimble feet, perfect balance and well-practiced technique serves you well. You’re exposed entirely up there with wind whipping your invisible cloak this way and that. However, the cold and the wind mean nothing to you. Nary a foot slips and nary a rock shifts under your light feet. Once you reach the face itself, your climb sideways is a pretty simple one, shimmying to your right hand over hand, hugging the mountain. The footing is sound until you get over top of the position you need to climb down to. The descent is always more difficult and dangerous than the way up…

Saerie

I take a deep, steadying breath and watch my frozen exhale dissipate. My adrenaline is pumping. Hand climbing on deadly faces has always exhilarated me, this one probably more than any other given the gravity of the stakes. If I lose a handhold...if a fissure bearing the weight of my foot fails me...

I think back to my most precarious climbs in the Feywild. The eternal summer of my homeland won't help me with the slippery ice, but lack of sound footing is something all climbers must deal with whether its loose scree, the slippery spray of a nearby waterfall, or a crumbling face. I consult the accumulated wisdom of my hard-earned experience for the answer to the slippery footing on my descent.

Spout Lore (Int)
3, 1 + 1 = 5

Mark 1 xp

GM

As you invisibly cling to the sheer, icy wall, your clenched hands growing ever more weary as your mind ponders the best way down, you hear a faint noise from the slope above you and to your right. The degree of slope is much more muted there, allowing you to see further up onto the mountain. Intermittent growling, hissing, and playful chirping noises lead your eyes to a pair of world-exploring snow leopard cubs. They're batting each other, bounding and rolling toward the weak ice/snow-pack above you. If they get there...

...well, things will be bad for you...things will be bad for them. But, on the bright side, things will surely be bad for the group of sentinels directly below you as well!

So there you are, locked in a belly-to-belly embrace with the mountain, trying to slowly shimmy downwards. The drop to the landing below you is probably 40 feet (d10 damage no armor). That narrow stone landing separates the two avalanche zones and runs horizontally along the mountainside like a belt for a great fat man. It is surely to be as slick as the ridge you crossed and the fall would either require (1) some way to avoid this situation altogether or (2) Defy Danger with sure death @ 6- or d10 damage (No Armor) @ 7-9...with either of those triggering an avalanche upon you (and the bad guys).

 

[Nagol]

<snipped to avoid secondary mention triggering> and of course anyone else who has any interest in discussing this angle of the conversation),

Don't get me wrong. I like Dungeon World a lot. It's one of the systems I'll run when I want a more cinematic / scene framed games. It is just not as immune to DM force as you often present and that force can be at least as difficult to pick up on as Illusionism is in more outcome-based games like D&D. The power of the DM to pick the resultant moves that fit the narrative is central to the game and can be easily used by the DM to garner a particular play experience. This is beneficial when the DM is using it to maintain a genre convention. It is more problematic when the DM wants to take a game in a particular direction.


Your first example (copied below because the board doesn't do quotes in quotes) appears to be a great example of GM force moving resolution / scene framing towards a specific goal.

Saerie is attempting to win over the dog and outright fails. Which should presumably take the dog out of the scene as an ally/friend. A hard move of Harm is probably unwarranted considering the fiction, though not completely out of character for the animal type. A more typical move would be for the animal to snap at the person, grab the food, and hightail it leaving the two-leg to flounder in the snow. Instead, the move chosen a soft one: the introduction of a previously disclosed (but unconnected to the current scene) environmental hazard that is approaching, but does not require instant reaction (the herd is still far). So the failure -- which would be immutable as a hard move result -- is negated. The DM keeps the dog in play as a potential friend/ally and even signals the animal is still approachable through the description of body language and positioning. Sort of "You failed, but the universe is worse than you so try again".

One might begin to think the DM wants the dog befriended/rescued.

Saerie

I slowly get into her line of sight so as not to startle her. When she sees me, I'll carefully pull out some dried meat from my pack. I'll get down on all fours, assume a non-threatening posture, and entreat her to a free meal, given in good faith.

Parley (Cha)

My leverage is food for the starving dog.

5, 1 - 1 = 5.

1 xp

GM

His ears perk up. The dog looks interested in your offering. However, if he is deaf he doesn't need ears to perceive the thundering herd of reindeer bearing down on you. Like you, the dog can feel it in the ground. Your mind is ushered back to the Winter Wolf's words regarding a maddened realm near the two great bodies of water in the highlands where "...herds of reindeer would stampede, tearing each other, and themselves, to pieces." Whether they're simply running from the fury of the storm that is hot on their tails or deranged creatures intent on your harm is impossible to say at this distance (far, 10 creatures).

The scared dog abruptly bounds out of his carved hole and rushes to your position where he might see the obscured threat. When the canine sees what is on the way, it tucks its tail between its legs and runs in a circle behind you, looking to you with uncertain eyes.

The reindeer are closing fast.