Jump while withdrawing?

[Vegepygmy]

Alternative phrasing - it makes the "assumption" that jumping as part of something other than a move action is allowed... an assumption that contradicts the skill description in the PHB.

Shame on you, Hyp, pretending that there is no context to the phrase "move action" in the Jump skill description!

"A jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action."

It's pretty clear from that sentence that the only reason a Jump check "is part of a move action" is because it's "included in your movement," so if you are moving by way of some other action than a move action, the jump check can just as easily be included as part of that action.

I see no "contradiction" between the FAQ and the skill description.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's pretty clear from that sentence that the only reason a Jump check "is part of a move action" is because it's "included in your movement," so if you are moving by way of some other action than a move action, the jump check can just as easily be included as part of that action.

So, then is it your argument that Jump isn't even relating to an action? Just movement right? So, anywhere I have movement, I can use the Jump skill, right?

I hope that's not what you mean, but it certainly sounds like it.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So, then is it your argument that Jump isn't even relating to an action? Just movement right? So, anywhere I have movement, I can use the Jump skill, right?

I hope that's not what you mean, but it certainly sounds like it.

No, that's pretty much what I'm saying. There may be some unusual situations where you're doing some kind of movement that is totally inappropriate for a Jump check (like swimming), but in general, if the action involves moving some distance, you can Jump as part of that action.

 

[RigaMortus2]

No, that's pretty much what I'm saying. There may be some unusual situations where you're doing some kind of movement that is totally inappropriate for a Jump check (like swimming), but in general, if the action involves moving some distance, you can Jump as part of that action.

So you can take the 5-foot step action and then Jump an additional 10 feet (for example)? Still having a Standard + Move Action left...

 

[KarinsDad]

Running is a full round action.

Charging is a full round action.

Withdrawing is a full round action.


Does it make sense to not be able to run and jump in mid-run?

What does the phrase "running start" mean in the Jump skill? What does the phrase "maximum movement" mean in the Jump skill?

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.

The issue here is the phrase:

A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action.

Can a Jump check be part of a move action? Yes.

Can it be part of some other type of action? Probably yes. This phrase states that it is part of a move action, but does not limit it to only move actions. Otherwise, it cannot be done while running.


So, can a Jump be made while running, charging, or withdrawing? Yes, no, and yes. It is not the Jump skill that prohibits it for charging, it is the charging action:

You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

Withdraw does not have this type of limitation. You can move wherever and however you want up to a double move. You cannot Tumble while Withdrawing because Withdraw is not normal movement, it is a specialized form of movement which prevents an AoO:

Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so.

The Jump skill does not restrict the movement, nor does it limit you to only doing it for a Move Action. One can interpret the "it is part of a move action" to limiting it only to a move action, but that phrase does not really do that. In fact, if you literally read that phrase to mean that, you could not Jump in the middle of a Double Move (two move actions, not one) either (which is just as silly as not allowing it for a Run action).


My vote: You can Jump as part of Running and as part of Withdrawing, but not as part of Charging.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So you can take the 5-foot step action and then Jump an additional 10 feet (for example)?

Of course not. You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. Why would that rule be any different?

 

[Vegepygmy]

So, can a Jump be made while running, charging, or withdrawing? Yes, no, and yes. It is not the Jump skill that prohibits it for charging, it is the charging action:

You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

I don't understand why you have "slows movement" in boldface. Jumping doesn't slow your movement. (And a square of terrain that slows movement isn't a square that slows your movement if you Jump over it.)

 

[evilbob]

I agree with Vegepygmy and KarinsDad about the interpretation of the description of Jump. It can be done as part of a move action, but it is not stated that it can only be done as part of a move action - merely that it can be done as part of movement (which is involved in withdrawing). (Plus, and while logic is hardly apropos to a D20 rules debate, it does seem to make logical sense in that moving quickly or running 30 feet shouldn't stop you from jumping.)

I'm not sure about the charging thing, and I would have thought you could certainly jump while charging without a problem. In fact, I thought that was part of the whole point of being a monk: insane movement ability + insane jumping ability = charge over obstacles, including jumping over the fighter to hit the mage in the back lines (as I read the description, jumping over something should not hinder a charge; only having a clear path and nothing that slows you down matters). However, that's certainly open to interpretation.

Edit: Oh, and I believe that tumbling while withdrawing shouldn't be an issue, either, as long as you are not tumbling out of the first square. (You are not "moving normally" out of that first square, because you are doing whatever is necessary to gain the benefit of withdrawing.)

So you can take the 5-foot step action and then Jump an additional 10 feet (for example)? Still having a Standard + Move Action left...

No, because you moved an additional 10'. You either couldn't have taken that movement because you already took a 5' step, or you would not have been able to take the 5' step. I see no problem with jumping or starting a jump with your 5' step that goes a maximum of 5'.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Jump skill does not restrict the movement, nor does it limit you to only doing it for a Move Action. One can interpret the "it is part of a move action" to limiting it only to a move action, but that phrase does not really do that. In fact, if you literally read that phrase to mean that, you could not Jump in the middle of a Double Move (two move actions, not one) either (which is just as silly as not allowing it for a Run action).

Well, that's covered in the skill description:

A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

You take your move action; as part of the movement, you jump; your jump distance exceeds the distance remaining in your move action. What happens? Your next action on this turn - the second move action in your double move - is the move action to complete the jump.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't understand why you have "slows movement" in boldface. Jumping doesn't slow your movement. (And a square of terrain that slows movement isn't a square that slows your movement if you Jump over it.)

A square of terrain that slows movement is still a square that slows movement, even if you jump over it. It might not slow movement for you at the point in time that you jump, but it is still a square that slows movement. Minimally, it forces you to jump in order to not double the move distance through it. You cannot just move through it normally.

"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that slows movement, you can’t charge."

Long Jump: A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet).

...

You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

Charge forces you to move directly towards your opponent with no deviation. Long jumps force you to attain a vertical height. If you are attaining a vertical height, you are not moving directly toward your opponent. Deviating vertically is no different than deviating horizontally. Both disallow a charge based on the direct movement rules of charging.


The charging rules are real clear that you must have clear terrain between you and the target. If you have to jump to avoid the non-clear terrain, then you do not have clear terrain between you and the target and charging is not allowed.