Jump while withdrawing?

[TYPO5478]

Yes, I would evewn allow Climb as part of a Charge, but the circumstance modifier would be too high to be a practical tactic for most creatures that lack an inherent racial Climb speed.

Even though the description of Withdraw specifically prohibits withdrawing "using a form of movement for which you don't have a listed speed"? Any other rules you plan to blatantly break while you're at it?

So sure, you gain an altitude of 1.25 feet at the midpoint of a 5 foot jump, but that does not necessarily mean the character is high enough to avoid the difficult terrain at either edge (or even somewhere in between). In fact, it does not mean that the character acquires enough height to avoid the difficult terrain even at the midpoint.

You could adjust the length (and concurrently, the DC) of your jump so that you clear the height of the terrain you're trying to avoid. Just because you're trying to clear a 5 foot space doesn't mean your jump has to be that short.

Can a Jump check be part of a move action? Yes.

Can it be part of some other type of action? Probably yes. This phrase states that it is part of a move action, but does not limit it to only move actions.

This is a dangerous precedent to set. There are plenty of things that are described as taking a particular action, but not specifically proscribed from other actions. The reason is that associating a particular event with a type of action is generally exclusive. Saying that something "takes a standard action" means it takes a standard action and only a standard action; it doesn't mean it takes a standard action unless you don't have one handy, in which case you can probably use some other type of action. The rules saying that jumping is "part of a move action," means it's part of a move action and nothing else, not that it's part of a move action unless you aren't taking one.

I don't disagree that it seems reasonable that a jump could be included in any type of normal movement (i.e. not flying, swimming, climbing, etc.). But the way the rules are written, it can't be unless that movement is part of a Move Action. I can't just change the rules because I disagree with what they say. And neither can you.

 

[mvincent]

You cannot jump during a charge

From the 3.5 FAQ:
"You can make a long jump as part of a charge. You must
still follow all the normal rules for making a charge, such as
moving in a straight line on the battle grid. This tactic can let
you avoid some of the normal restrictions against charging. If a
square of difficult terrain is between you and your charge
target, you could possibly jump over it with a long jump. (The
fact that your jump means that your movement isn’t a perfectly
straight line doesn’t make the charge illegal—you’re still
moving in a straight line as far as the battle grid is concerned,
and the jump isn’t really changing your direction.)"

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Even though the description of Withdraw specifically prohibits withdrawing "using a form of movement for which you don't have a listed speed"? Any other rules you plan to blatantly break while you're at it?

All of them, if balanced, preserves narrative flow, and makes the game more fun. To do otherwise creates situations where I could have a +100 skill appropriate for the terrain, yet I am tactically inferior to someone with a low level spell.

I admit that applying this to Climb or Swim would be greatly stretching the rule. But if we want to stick to RAW literalism, I would argue that Jump is in fact an implicitly listed movement type for creatures with a Str score and a normal movement rate.

 

[ElectricDragon]

by KarinsDad
1) Smooth ice might be slippery, but it does not prevent charging or even moving unless the floor itself does. See the Sleet Storm spell. Slippery surfaces do not slow movement, they add to balance or tumble DCs.

According to the SRD section on weather:

Snow: Falling snow has the same effects on visibility, ranged weapon attacks, and skill checks as rain, and it costs 2 squares of movement to enter a snow-covered square. A day of snowfall leaves 1d6 inches of snow on the ground.

Heavy Snow: Heavy snow has the same effects as normal snowfall, but also restricts visibility as fog does (see Fog, below). A day of heavy snow leaves 1d4 feet of snow on the ground, and it costs 4 squares of movement to enter a square covered with heavy snow. Heavy snow accompanied by strong or severe winds may result in snowdrifts 1d4×5 feet deep, especially in and around objects big enough to deflect the wind—a cabin or a large tent, for instance. There is a 10% chance that a heavy snowfall is accompanied by lightning (see Thunderstorm, below). Snow has the same effect on flames as moderate wind.

Sleet: Essentially frozen rain, sleet has the same effect as rain while falling (except that its chance to extinguish protected flames is 75%) and the same effect as snow once on the ground.

Hail: Hail does not reduce visibility, but the sound of falling hail makes Listen checks more difficult (–4 penalty). Sometimes (5% chance) hail can become large enough to deal 1 point of lethal damage (per storm) to anything in the open. Once on the ground, hail has the same effect on movement as snow.

Snow, Heavy Snow, Sleet, and Hail once on the ground, all affect movement and thus could be considered difficult terrain. What is sleet on the ground? A slippery surface? Only heavy snow would constitute a "high" barrier (1d4 ft./day) to jumping.

So, in essence, a slippery surface increases Balance and Tumble checks by 5 and costs 2 squares of movement to enter. If the terrain below it is also rubble-filled; the movement penalties would stack.

Plus: using the Balance skill means moving at 1/2 speed unless you take a further -5 penalty to the check. Any surface that gives a penalty to Balance checks requires a Balance check to move on the surface.

Under the Balance skill though it lists DCs for running or charging on uneven flagstone floors, hewn stone floors and sloped or angled ground; so would such running/charging be at half speed unless the extra Balance penalty were taken? Meaning that it is possible to charge while Balancing and moving at 1/2 speed?

Ciao
Dave

 

[TYPO5478]

To do otherwise creates situations where I could have a +100 skill appropriate for the terrain, yet I am tactically inferior to someone with a low level spell.

That just goes to show that there are certain situations where a skill check, no matter how well modified, is no match for magic.

I would argue that Jump is in fact an implicitly listed movement type for creatures with a Str score and a normal movement rate.

Like an elephant? Or a gelatinous cube?

 

[KarinsDad]

You could adjust the length (and concurrently, the DC) of your jump so that you clear the height of the terrain you're trying to avoid. Just because you're trying to clear a 5 foot space doesn't mean your jump has to be that short.

Sure you could, but the moment a Long Jump becomes a 20 foot jump (i.e. 5 foot high at the midpoint), some DMs would rule that the character is no longer taking a direct path to the target while charging (i.e. he is moving from the 5 foot "cubes" on the ground to a 5 foot cube above the ground).

So, this would appear to limit this option to short jumps and terrain with short obstacles.

This is a dangerous precedent to set. There are plenty of things that are described as taking a particular action, but not specifically proscribed from other actions. The reason is that associating a particular event with a type of action is generally exclusive. Saying that something "takes a standard action" means it takes a standard action and only a standard action; it doesn't mean it takes a standard action unless you don't have one handy, in which case you can probably use some other type of action. The rules saying that jumping is "part of a move action," means it's part of a move action and nothing else, not that it's part of a move action unless you aren't taking one.

I don't disagree that it seems reasonable that a jump could be included in any type of normal movement (i.e. not flying, swimming, climbing, etc.). But the way the rules are written, it can't be unless that movement is part of a Move Action. I can't just change the rules because I disagree with what they say. And neither can you.

I'm not changing the rule. It's poorly written (if only move actions is the intent) and hence I'm interpreting it differently.

A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action.

You can read the second half of this sentence as: Jump checks are only part of move actions.

Or, you can read the second half of this sentence as: For example, jump checks are part of move actions.

The word "so" is nebulous. It depends on whether you put the emphasis on "included in your movement" or "part of a move action". It depends on whether you consider the second part of the sentence as explanation of the first half or a phrase on its own that explains the only time when the Jump check can be done.


Deductions are included in taxes, so they are part of the Federal Tax Laws.

This does not preclude them from being part of the State Tax Laws. Here, both state and federal laws include deductions, so this sentence could be considered ambiguous with regard to state tax laws, but the implication of the first half of the sentence could also be interpreted that it applies to all tax laws. Ditto for the Jump rule.

The wording is poor if they wanted to express an explicit inclusion (or exclusion).

 

[KarinsDad]

Duplicate post.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Jump skill does not state that you can use it to jump over difficult terrain and avoid the movement penalty, the Charge attack does not state that you can jump over difficult terrain and still charge, the Leap Attack feat indicates that you cannot normally jump while charging, and if you take the position that you can only jump during a move action (as per one interpretation of the Jump skill), these last two disallow jumping while charging at all, let alone over difficult terrain.

Notice that I'm not arguing in favour of Jumping while Charging; the Charge action (like the Withdraw and Run action) is not a move action, and thus Jumping is not (as I read the Jump skill) permitted.

I'm merely arguing in favour of Jumping not necessarily breaking a straight line movement.

-Hyp.

 

[TYPO5478]

Sure you could, but the moment a Long Jump becomes a 20 foot jump (i.e. 5 foot high at the midpoint), some DMs would rule that the character is no longer taking a direct path to the target while charging (i.e. he is moving from the 5 foot "cubes" on the ground to a 5 foot cube above the ground).

So, this would appear to limit this option to short jumps and terrain with short obstacles.

Fair enough, if you want to use that interpretation. But the rules don't say anything about "5 foot cubes"; that's an extrapolation of Hypersmurf's based on center of gravity sorry, center of mass with which I don't necessarily agree. It's possible, for example, to jump something three feet tall without having to raise your center of gravity three feet. Imagine a hurdler; they certainly don't cover 12 feet of ground distance jumping a 3-foot-tall hurdle.

Deductions are included in taxes, so they are part of the Federal Tax Laws.

This does not preclude them from being part of the State Tax Laws. Here, both state and federal laws include deductions, so this sentence could be considered ambiguous with regard to state tax laws, but the implication of the first half of the sentence could also be interpreted that it applies to all tax laws. Ditto for the Jump rule.

I think your analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I'll try to use it as best I can: I can take the same deduction from both my federal and state taxes. Could I then make a jump check as part of both a Full Round Action (Withdraw) and a Move Action (Move) at the same time?

 

[KarinsDad]

Fair enough, if you want to use that interpretation. But the rules don't say anything about "5 foot cubes"; that's an extrapolation of Hypersmurf's based on center of gravity sorry, center of mass with which I don't necessarily agree. It's possible, for example, to jump something three feet tall without having to raise your center of gravity three feet. Imagine a hurdler; they certainly don't cover 12 feet of ground distance jumping a 3-foot-tall hurdle.

Unlike real world hurdlers, DND is quite specific about how a long jump occurs.

Long Jump: A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance.

I think your analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I'll try to use it as best I can: I can take the same deduction from both my federal and state taxes. Could I then make a jump check as part of both a Full Round Action (Withdraw) and a Move Action (Move) at the same time?

No, the analogy would be that Full Round Actions and Move Actions can both contain movement, hence, both could allow for a Jump check.

The analogy was merely there to illustrate that the word "so" in that rule is ambiguous. It can be interpreted two different ways.

The rule is not clear such as "Jump checks can only be performed as part of Move Actions which allow for movement.".