Jump while withdrawing?

[mvincent]

the FAQ states that one can jump while charging. The Leap Attack feat states that one cannot normally do this.

Can you quote where it says this? (never-mind, found it)

I vaguely recall that the original description of the Leap Attack feat (in the Forgotten Fealms book) implied that a jump and charge could be done together normally. When this was asked about (in the FAQ I believe) a muddled answer was given saying that if you viewed that jumping and charging could not be done together, then the feat gave this ability. I believe the feat was later re-written (here) to explicitly express that allowance, but then the FAQ was altered to allow jumping and charging normally (and the muddled answer removed). Anyone else remember this? Maybe I'm thinking of the Battle Jump feat (from Unapproachable East)

 

[mvincent]

I already mentioned one. Why can you withdraw and jump and not withdraw and close a door behind you?

I read that statement earlier and it didn't seem to support to side (in fact, I was surprised that you didn't already know the answer to this). Closing a door is not considered a part of normal movement... it is a separate move action. See the move action table here.

Is falling movement?

Falling is not normally considered part of your 'movement' (using the D&D terminology for movement)... i.e. it doesn't actually use your normal movement allowance. From the FAQ:
"falling happens very quickly. In a single second, the typical
character falls 16 feet; after 2 seconds, you’ve fallen 64 feet.
It’s probably okay to let a character who falls up to 20 feet or
so to continue moving as part of the same action (assuming he
remains standing at the end of the drop)."
But this is fairly irrelevant for our purposes.

However: climbing, swimming, tumbling, flying, burrowing, etc. are all part of your normal movement, and could be good for discussion.

Either you allow Jump during "movement" or you allow it during "Move action". The first is inconsistent without a few special cases (i.e. no jumping while swimming without a swim speed, etc.).

I don't believe I understand this part.

 

[darthkilmor]

It seems similar to disallowing someone from buying a 5' pole, "because the PHB only lists 10' poles".

Sure you can. They're called 'staffs'.

And one more vote in the hat of "jump whenever you're moving".

 

[Infiniti2000]

I read that statement earlier and it didn't seem to support to side (in fact, I was surprised that you didn't already know the answer to this).

There is no answer to a rhetorical question. The point was to show inconsistency.

We all agree that you cannot withdraw and close a door behind you because closing a door is undeniably a Move Action. I know some people houserule it to be a free action some of the time (depending on the door), but that is neither here nor there.

So, does it take more effort/concentration on your part to jump over an acid-filled pit or close a door? Why does the fact that I close a door cause me to be less careful (provoke an AoO) then when I jump over some dangerous substance or uneven terrain?

If you can explain the above to my satisfaction, I will forever allow jumping while withdrawing and ban all doors in my games. Well, except for that one adamantine Door IYKWIM.

Falling is not normally considered part of your 'movement' (using the D&D terminology for movement)... i.e. it doesn't actually use your normal movement allowance.

I agree that it doesn't, but you have no support for that stance if you rule on Jump here as you do. Are you suggesting that you are not moving while falling? Can you jump while engaging in movement or not?

However: climbing, swimming, tumbling, flying, burrowing, etc. are all part of your normal movement, and could be good for discussion.

Now, you say 'normal movement'. You're changing the term because just talking about 'movement' leads to inconsistencies (which is my only point here). So, now with your new term, is withdrawing normal movement? If so, how does withdrawing not provoke an AoO and other 'normal' movement does?

I don't believe I understand this part.

It is, unfortunately, the critical element. Disassociating 'movement' with Move Action is what you are arguing, is it not? If so, then I can jump whenever I have 'movement' regardless of what type of action it required (if any) or what I was doing at the time.

As another example, consider getting bull rushed 'into' a pit. Why can't I jump over the pit when I get bull rush 'over' it? You bull rush me some number of feet over a pit until I am technically over empty air (ala Wile E. Coyote). Instead of falling, though, I Jump. I'm in the middle of movement, right? So, why not. I don't fall though, no matter what, based on the rules of jumping while running out of 'movement'.

Now, that example is patently ridiculous and its intent is entirely to show how such rulings lead to inconsistencies.

 

[evilbob]

So, does it take more effort/concentration on your part to jump over an acid-filled pit or close a door? Why does the fact that I close a door cause me to be less careful (provoke an AoO) then when I jump over some dangerous substance or uneven terrain?

Technically, they would both incur an AoO. The jumping (being part of your movement, action or no) would count as "leaving a threatened square" if any of the squares along the jump were threatened, thus incurring an AoO.

Are you suggesting that you are not moving while falling? Can you jump while engaging in movement or not?

You've created an inconsistency based on two meanings of the word "move." While your body is physically "moving" while falling, yes, you are not "spending movement" - spending movement squares up to your speed - while falling. You agree, right? You cannot count "I drop straight down 20 feet, and next turn I'll drop 20 more" as a legal action, so you're clearly not spending movement to fall.

Now, you say 'normal movement'. You're changing the term...

Technically, that's the definition, which I believe everyone has been using, except when you described falling, to refer to what I called "spending movement" above.

So, now with your new term, is withdrawing normal movement? If so, how does withdrawing not provoke an AoO and other 'normal' movement does?

Withdrawing is a full-round action, but you only gain the benefit of the withdraw from the first square you "move" out of. You are, however, "spending movement" to move out of that square, so withdrawing is both "normal movement" and for exactly one square of that normal movement, you gain the ability to avoid AoOs. Further "normal movement" during the withdraw is, as we all know and agree, subject to AoOs.

If so, then I can jump whenever I have 'movement' regardless of what type of action it required (if any) or what I was doing at the time.

And to bring this all back to my viewpoint, I agree that jumping is allowed during normal movement - when spending movement up to your speed - regardless of what type of action is being done to make that movement. (I earlier stated that jumping during a 5' step would be ok, but I have since decided this is in error, and retract my statement. Not to mention that "hopping up" - listed under the jump skill - takes 10' of movement, anyway. )

As another example, consider getting bull rushed 'into' a pit. Why can't I jump over the pit when I get bull rush 'over' it?

Because you are not spending movement (it's not your turn and you're being pushed).

 

[mvincent]

Why does the fact that I close a door cause me to be less careful (provoke an AoO) then when I jump over some dangerous substance or uneven terrain?

Opening or closing a door does not provoke an AoO (this was also in the table I referenced for you above).

If you can explain the above to my satisfaction, I will forever allow jumping while withdrawing and ban all doors in my games.

I think you lost me here. Is it explained to your satisfaction? Was your question rhetorical (it didn't seem so, but then neither did the previous one)?

how does withdrawing not provoke an AoO and other 'normal' movement does?

Withdrawing does provoke AoO's, just not on the first 5' (which is it's explicit benefit... i.e. it doesn't provoke during that 5' movement because the rules explicitly say it doesn't).

Disassociating 'movement' with Move Action is what you are arguing, is it not? .

"Move action" and "Movement" are indeed different terms in D&D.

If so, then I can jump whenever I have 'movement' regardless of what type of action it required (if any) or what I was doing at the time.

Mostly, assuming it is part of your action involving movement.

Why can't I jump over the pit when I get bull rush 'over' it?

Because it not your action.

The wording for jump says:
"Action
None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump."

This seems to imply that it only works during your turn. I suppose you could ague that a bullrusher shouldn't be able to jump over a pit, but I'd be ok with that if it could be justified (i.e. bull rushing a flyer or somesuch)

 

[Infiniti2000]

Opening or closing a door does not provoke an AoO (this was also in the table I referenced for you above).

I think you lost me here. Is it explained to your satisfaction? Was your question rhetorical (it didn't seem so, but then neither did the previous one)?

I'm sorry, let me clarify my point. Presume I take one of the following two actions when you threaten me:

1. Withdraw, moving twice my speed and jumping over a lava pit on the way, and jumping down a 10ft pit carefull to land softly at the bottom.

2. Move away up to my speed through an open doorway and then closing the door behind me.

Assuming you only have 5ft reach, you get an AoO on #2, but not #1. If you can explain why this makes sense to you (not why this is 'true' just per the rules, because the rules are being debated), I would be grateful.

This seems to imply that it only works during your turn.

Most definitely not according to your interpretation. The only thing that makes your statement here true is if you use the Move Action interpretation. Without that, you can jump whenever you have movement.

That means falling, 5ft-step, being bull-rushed, sidestepping a blade barrier, and any other situation. Without exception. Considering the Move Action phrase as exemplary allows no other exceptions. I'd of course agree with the exceptions (they do, after, support my side), but because of them I think my interpretation on the rules is the stronger.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm sorry, let me clarify my point. Presume I take one of the following two actions when you threaten me:

1. Withdraw, moving twice my speed and jumping over a lava pit on the way, and jumping down a 10ft pit carefull to land softly at the bottom.

2. Move away up to my speed through an open doorway and then closing the door behind me.

Assuming you only have 5ft reach, you get an AoO on #2, but not #1. If you can explain why this makes sense to you (not why this is 'true' just per the rules, because the rules are being debated), I would be grateful.

I do not know about mvincent, but you've convinced me with this example. Balance is important. Withdrawing should mean doing nothing else but withdrawing.

And you guys still think that KD is always stubborn and always sticks to his guns. Sheesh.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I do not know about mvincent, but you've convinced me with this example. Balance is important. Withdrawing should mean doing nothing else but withdrawing.

To play Devil's Advocate (yes, I suppose this implies mvincent is a devil, but not just any devil, he's a baatezu! No, not a zoo, a baatezu!), perhaps the balance problem is in the action required for closing a door.

 

[KarinsDad]

To play Devil's Advocate (yes, I suppose this implies mvincent is a devil, but not just any devil, he's a baatezu! No, not a zoo, a baatezu!), perhaps the balance problem is in the action required for closing a door.

I don't think so. Withdraw is about giving up something (actions other than movement) in order to gain something (distance and no initial AoO). Even ignoring your door example, being able to withdraw and jump down into a pit and not take damage is gaining more than just what Withdraw promises. So, that is a balance problem because it ignores the intent of the Withdraw action.