Just going along with the DM

[Menexenus]

Hey, nice thread, guys! I've recently been thinking about this very topic: what is the right level of player cooperation with DM planning? If the players simply reject the DM's plans, then his work is wasted, he feels frustrated, and the group will have nothing interesting to do during that session (unless the DM is one of those rare individuals who can just make up interesting encounters on the fly). On the other hand, if the players simply submit to the DM's prompts all the time, it can be boring for the players and there can be that dreaded sense of "being railroaded".

I think it is really a difficult thing to achieve the fine balance necessary to keep the game fun for everyone. And the right balance probably varies for each gaming group. Some players *want* to be railroaded; they play D&D to eat munchies with their friends and kill things. They don't want to be bothered by having to take the initiative. On the other hand, some DMs don't like preparing grand adventures and prefer to think of themselves as improvisational story-tellers/actors. They are perfectly happy to go with the flow and make something up on the spot.

So although it's not interesting to say so, I think the right balance between DM and player initiative is different for every group. But this very bland, relativist conclusion does not stop me from asking what particular balance is right for *my* group. That's a trickier question that might actually have a right and wrong answer.

 

[Zappo]

Well... I don't obstacle the DM. I don't go out of my way to bypass or screw up the plot if I can clearly understand that it would mess up the adventure. It is true that cunning plans are worthy, but The Story has a certain value too.

OTOH, I don't go out of my way to facilitate the flow, either. If the DM has planned for my 13th level Wizard to undertake a long and adventurous journey to reach the other side of the continent - I'm sorry, but here's Greater Teleport. It would be totally out of character not to cast it. A DM shouldn't rely on characters not to use their abilities.

Same thing goes for character motivations. I don't actively ignore plot hooks or make uncaring characters, but I expect the DM to create plot hooks that are reasonably interesting for the characters I make.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Unfortunately, the last two DMs I've had have either 1) not had a story, or 2) had a story but didn't communicate it with any sort of effectiveness or enthusiasm.

In the first case, the DM actually was under the impression that, by having everything rolled randomly, the story was actually determined by the players. He figured that all of our improvisations in deciding player motivations would serve to have the story create itself. Needless to say, the campaign collapsed. The first 3-4 sessions were good, though.............because he had something planned! LoL

In the second case, it was clear that the DM had some sort of plot going, but it was also some sort of rather uninvolving mystery plot. I say "mystery" because it was a mystery to me what the plot was most of the time! And when I finally found out what it was (erm..............us against the demons?!?), I was somewhat dissapointed and tried to actually insert my own plot (me against our elven NPC allies with the aid of the demons!!!).

I'd like a game of D&D with an organized DM who comes prepared with a plot and actively communicates said plot to us in a very proactive way. Sadly, this hasn't happened to me since 1994.

:-(

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Speaking as a DM, I quite enjoy it when the players come up with great original ideas. This shows me that they are enthusiastic and interested in the adventure.

If they come up with the idea near the end of a session, I usually let them succeed. After all, I never plan too far ahead in detail, so it doesn't bother me much if they wreck my future plans - I can always come up something new during the next week.

Of course, if they have their great idea earlier, I might have to think of some additional challenges for the PCs - after all, they want to feel busy . It might be that they underestimated the number of enemy forces, or the forces they do encounter are tougher than expected. Yes, that's cheating a bit - but as long as the players don't notice, it's okay.

Of course, you don't want your players to think: "No matter what we plan, we still have to face the same challenges - so why bother coming up with ideas?" No, they should think: "We would have been dead if Bob the Thief hadn't come up with this plan!"

Example: The PCs are trying to kill an Evil High Cleric. You plan the adventure with the assumption that they will frontally assault his Secret Hideout, thus giving you lots of opportunities to throw minor combat encounters in their way and using up their resources.

Instead, they come up with a Clever Plan to sneak into the Secret Hideout - which means that they will bypass most of the encounters until they reach the EHP's chambers! What to do?

Well, your players don't know exactly how stong the EHC is. So instead of being a 9th level cleric, he is now a 12th level cleric! And instead of having one Pet Monster in his chambers (to have something to feed incompetent subordinates to, of course), he has three!

But instead of fighting in his +2 plate mail, he is now only in his nightgown! Sure, if he has a few rounds to prepare, he can still cast some protection spells on him - but he will still be much easier to hit this way. And now your PCs can brag about "how they caught the Evil High Cleric in his underpants"...

So that's my advice: Up the ante, but give the PCs some real breaks so that they can really feel they have accomplished something.

 

[Mouseferatu]

But isn't that the beauty of it all? So what if you're local-village-girl-was-a-wererat plot didn't get a look in - the most important thing for me as a DM is to show the players that they are inhabiting a living, breathing, thinking world. Throw creative solutions right back at them. Non stop.

Well, yes. That is the beauty of it all. I was stating the above as a simple fact, and as evidence that I do allow and encourage creative solutions from my players. I certainly hope you didn't think I was saying it was a bad thing. :\

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

I certainly hope you didn't think I was saying it was a bad thing

no no no. I was emphatically agreeing with you - I think I got distracted by ranting about DM strategy.

On a side note, couldn't we burn the evil cleric out of his hideout?

Spider

 

[Mouseferatu]

On a side note, couldn't we burn the evil cleric out of his hideout?

Well, you could if he didn't know you'd already burned down the hideouts of his last three underlings. This particular building is made of stone and enchanted against fire. Plus, don't forget that the trap you triggered on the way in doused you in alchemist's fire, so I'd be careful around open flame.

(My players have learned always to keep in mind that the villains learn from the party's past actions, just as the party learns from theirs. )

 

[RFisher]

My goal as DM these days is not to have a story for the PCs to follow. To suppress any preferences for what direction they take.

That's not to say that everything they encounter is random. I still try to create a world for them to explore. NPCs still plot. Backstory still exists to be uncovered. Obstacles are still created for the PCs to overcome, if they want whatever is on the other side.

Indeed, I try to set up obstacles that I don't know how the PCs will overcome. I want to be surprised by their solution.

 

[Gwarok]

Well this is a pen and paper RPG, so I think a DM needs to be prepared for his players using whatever tactic or methods they feel are going to work the best. I have DM'd for some pretty contrary individuals, and its in your interest to think outside the box. This goes double for caster types, as the number of options available to them at high levels can get pretty staggering.

Which isn't to say all your adventures need to be free form, structure can be there. But you need to make it advantageous for the players to go your route, not just convenient for the sake of the story. I find most players have some set goals, both meta-gaming wise and for their characters place in the world. By tweeking on these goals you can get most players to do what you want and keep them totally convinced it was their idea. Its really more art than science so thats about as clear as I can put it. Good luck and happy hunting to your players

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Well, as a player I try and follow the DMs leads, but I more mean in the sense of plot hooks. I am big on creative play and will try and find clever ways around obstacles. As a DM I hope for my players to do the same, and give XP bonuses for "outwitting" me. What frustrates me is when players refuse to follow plot hooks AND do not provide ideas for alternatives.

[rant] I just started a new campaign this weekend. The players did not help me out, as I requested a few weeks earlier, in working together to come up with a decent reason why they would be together. I quickly cobble an excuse together and get them moving. Then, when the major plot hook dumps into their lap, I get a couple of them giving me the "why should I risk my life for that?" My hope is for an fairly open campaign, but you have to have a starting point. They gave me nothing to work with and then resisted when I try and give them a starting point. Fortunately after some tense moments another player came to the rescue and took the hook. [/rant]