D&D 5E Just One More Thing: The Power of "No" in Design (aka, My Fun, Your Fun, and BadWrongFun)

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Son of the Serpent]

You were thinking this thread wouldn't eventually disintegrate in any case?

As far as the whole silly "best swordsman" thing, I wouldn't even know where to start. A first level anything that thinks they're the best at what they do is delusional. Which is fine. But if a magic user is a better swordsman than a dedicated martial character, I'd say you simply aren't throwing enough encounters.

Not really. Lets use a completely martial example to persuade you.

IRL tye greatest swordsmen train in varioua disciplines that arent strictly sword play to massively inprove their quality as a swordsman. For instance, hand to hand martial arts and gymnastics are common choices to develop more advanced swordplay.

Magic would be used by a swordsman in a similar way. Likely they would be signifficantly less trained in it than the sword itself, but still trained. They would also at very high skill level begin training with enchanted swords that benefit from years of experience. Ie. How to properly use a fire enchanted sword. Particular differences in use and techniques that are unique like being able to damage someone or their armor without being able to swing the sword so long as its currently pressed against them or especially a leather strap (which will burn through and destabilize a piece of armor).

 

[Umbran]

There arent huge amounts of fiction which are about that kind of progression...

There are "huge amounts" of fiction that does, and huge amounts of fiction that doesn't. It isn't like "the fiction style with the most examples wins, and should be the basis for game design", though, so we don't actually need to find out which is biggest. The thing is that our RPGs (speaking broadly and generally) are not just writing a fiction. They are an imaginative activity that happens to have fiction as one output.

Humans have a very solid psychological hook that helps then stay engaged - power advancement. You can create a game that doesn't use that hook, but doing so... is leaving a very powerful tool unused.

 

[Garthanos]

. The thing is that our RPGs (speaking broadly and generally) are not just writing a fiction. They are an imaginative activity that happens to have fiction as one output.

Oh most definitely wasnt implying that it was a limiter this is a game.

 

[Garthanos]

Humans have a very solid psychological hook that helps then stay engaged - power advancement. You can create a game that doesn't use that hook, but doing so... is leaving a very powerful tool unused.

And exactly... that hook is very noticeable its why WoW keeps adding power advancement to keep people reinvesting.

However I think power advancement can change the story so much that tadah people do not play high level D&D nearly so much.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So ... you're saying that you can't be the best martial character ... without magic?

Didn't quite sound like that, to me...

Depending on the system, build and options available, you might well have cases where magic could make one character a much better swordsman, but the hypothetical best swordsman might benefit little, or not at all, from the same magic. In 1e, for instance, a high level fighter didn't benefit from a Potion of Super-heroism. In 3e or 4e, with inherent bonuses, a magic weapon well below your level wouldn't stack with your own attack bonus. That kinda thing. Thus, you could if you arranged things just right, have magic add to skill, but still have ultimate skill being, ultimately, skill.

So, you could have dynamics like Crouching Tigher/Hidden Dragon ("Without the Green Destiny, you are nothing.")

Oh no. Do you realize what you've done? By incanting the words, "Magic > Martial in D&D"

Well, asserted that the game should be imbalanced (as long as it's in favor of magic), which is, at least, a clearly stated-position consistent with the designs of most editions.

They would also at very high skill level begin training with enchanted swords that benefit from years of experience. Ie. How to properly use a fire enchanted sword. Particular differences in use and techniques that are unique like being able to damage someone or their armor without being able to swing the sword...

A good point. A magic sword is just a better sword, or a sword with a different damage type or whatever. It's a different tool, you might well leverage those differences.
A game can make a magic weapon that just makes you better no matter how good you really are, or that just makes the sword better, leaving skill separate, or that bestows skill itself up to a maximum. There's lots of ways to handle it that could add to the story and/or be true to the character concept.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Didn't quite sound like that, to me...

Depending on the system, build and options available, you might well have cases where magic could make one character a much better swordsman, but the hypothetical best swordsman might benefit little, or not at all, from the same magic. In 1e, for instance, a high level fighter didn't benefit from a Potion of Super-heroism. In 3e or 4e, with inherent bonuses, a magic weapon well below your level wouldn't stack with your own attack bonus. That kinda thing. Thus, you could if you arranged things just right, have magic add to skill, but still have ultimate skill being, ultimately, skill.

So, you could have dynamics like Crouching Tigher/Hidden Dragon ("Without the Green Destiny, you are nothing.")

Well, asserted that the game should be imbalanced (as long as it's in favor of magic), which is, at least, a clearly stated-position consistent with the designs of most editions.

A good point. A magic sword is just a better sword, or a sword with a different damage type or whatever. It's a different tool, you might well leverage those differences.
A game can make a magic weapon that just makes you better no matter how good you really are, or that just makes the sword better, leaving skill separate, or that bestows skill itself up to a maximum. There's lots of ways to handle it that could add to the story and/or be true to the character concept.

Case in point. Lets take pappy palps (palpatine). Now he is primarily a wizard BUT lets say he wasnt. Lets say he was PRIMARILY a martial artist. Something we know about palpatine was that he was supernaturally (magically) fast. As a matter of fact though yoda was a slightly better swordsman palpatine was known to be one of the fastest swordsmen in all of star wars history and probably the fastest (though not quite the best) of his time. Even faster than yoda. His speed is an aspect of magical enhancement that would signifficantly alter how he uses his sword play skills. Using techniques which greatly benefit from speed. It has even been said that in regard to sword play techniques that involved speed were his true specialty. Magic augmented specialties wouod only proliferate further with someone who is actually primarily a martial artist unlike pappy palps.

Ps i <3 palpatine. Favorite space wizard ever to hit the screen (favorite space wizard in literature is marko ragnos)

 

[Oofta]

Not really. Lets use a completely martial example to persuade you.

IRL tye greatest swordsmen train in varioua disciplines that arent strictly sword play to massively inprove their quality as a swordsman. For instance, hand to hand martial arts and gymnastics are common choices to develop more advanced swordplay.

Magic would be used by a swordsman in a similar way. Likely they would be signifficantly less trained in it than the sword itself, but still trained. They would also at very high skill level begin training with enchanted swords that benefit from years of experience. Ie. How to properly use a fire enchanted sword. Particular differences in use and techniques that are unique like being able to damage someone or their armor without being able to swing the sword so long as its currently pressed against them or especially a leather strap (which will burn through and destabilize a piece of armor).

What I'm saying is that if the spell caster has all of their resources available, they will win most fights. But long term? After 5 encounters? Suddenly there's no guarantee. I'm also discussing how magic is implemented in D&D, which may not apply to other systems.

Let's say I'm doing PVP between an Eldritch Knight and a Champion Fighter. First encounter, the knight can cast spells like Shield to block blows. But eventually they're going to run out. They had also better hope the Champion doesn't have the Mage Slayer feat because if that's the case that Champion may suddenly win most times because once per round when the knight casts a spell the champion gets to smack him.

As far as magical swords, I see no reason a caster would understand them better. A flaming sword doesn't require the person using it to understand the magic behind it any more than I need to understand how my cell phone works. A mechanic isn't necessarily a better driver. It's not like there's any reason for the mundane fighter to be totally ignorant of flaming swords.

But the supremacy of magic vs martial is as old as D&D. My buddy in high school swears he should have won our impromptu PVP session between my fighter and his wizard. He may well have, if his hold person spell had worked. But my fighter walked away that day and Binkster wasn't going walk anywhere under their own power.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

What I'm saying is that if the spell caster has all of their resources available, they will win most fights. But long term? After 5 encounters? Suddenly there's no guarantee. I'm also discussing how magic is implemented in D&D, which may not apply to other systems.

Let's say I'm doing PVP between an Eldritch Knight and a Champion Fighter. First encounter, the knight can cast spells like Shield to block blows. But eventually they're going to run out. They had also better hope the Champion doesn't have the Mage Slayer feat because if that's the case that Champion may suddenly win most times because once per round when the knight casts a spell the champion gets to smack him.

As far as magical swords, I see no reason a caster would understand them better. A flaming sword doesn't require the person using it to understand the magic behind it any more than I need to understand how my cell phone works. A mechanic isn't necessarily a better driver. It's not like there's any reason for the mundane fighter to be totally ignorant of flaming swords.

But the supremacy of magic vs martial is as old as D&D. My buddy in high school swears he should have won our impromptu PVP session between my fighter and his wizard. He may well have, if his hold person spell had worked. But my fighter walked away that day and Binkster wasn't going walk anywhere under their own power.

Im thinking more along these lines:

In one corner we have a level 25 fighter

In the other corner we have a level 18 fighter level 7 wiz or dru.

Root tangle or similar spell, prestidigitation to ignite oil containing sword (dont even have to have legit enchantment) attack

Next turn fighter does what fighter does. (Yes next turn specifically because a martial artist who bothers to learn magic is going to bother to get various advantages that will guarantee certain strategic advantages like initiative)

 

[Tony Vargas]

What I'm saying is that if the spell caster has all of their resources available, they will win most fights.

Nod.

But long term?

Long term, they recover those resources.

After 5 encounters?

Depends on the encounters. But, in theory, over 6-8 encounters it'll approximately balance out. The caster will dominate in encounters where he expends the spell resources to do so, the fighter will be the stronger contributor in those where the caster sticks to cantrips. Either way, it's the caster's choice.

Let's say I'm doing PVP between an Eldritch Knight and a Champion Fighter. First encounter, the knight can cast spells like Shield to block blows.

And, they can both Action Surge.

But eventually they're going to run out.

Nod. The nth Champion they face that day will like beat them.

But the supremacy of magic vs martial is as old as D&D.

Prettymuch exactly as old.