Just Plain Broken

[AllisterH]

I forget, does Swooping Dragon Strike take a standard action or a full-round action to use? And does it require you to jump up from adjacent to the target, or can you do a move action beforehand and then leap once you're close?.

You can do a move action beforehand. If it was a full round action, then the manoeuver would blow chunks since with a full round action, you can't get a running start which DOUBLES the DC of the check. That said, there is an unclear question. A jump is considered a move action meaning you have to have some movement left on your turn. EX: If you jump 10 ft and attack, you only have 20 feet left of movement on your turn thus, for a regular 30' movement character, you can only jump a maximum of 10feet.

Note: This is why the feat "Leap of the Heavens" from PHB II is your friend or "Leaping Dragon Stance" from ToB itself since both allow you to count standing jumps as running jumps.

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A monk/swordsage or monk/warblade could get a nice Jump bonus if allowed a move-action to approach first. Aside from that or playing a Thri-Kreen

At 10th-level of swordsage there could be 13 ranks in Jump, a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble, a +2 from the Acrobatic feat, a +3 from Skill Focus, a +4 from the Run feat with a running start, a +10 from an Improved Ring of Jumping, and a +7 let's say from 24 Strength (base 18, +2 from levels, and +4 Belt). So, right there is a Jump modifier of +37, or +41 when you have a running start of at least 20 feet before reaching the target. Also, I think a Swordsage's Discipline Focus, or the Blade Meditation feat, or one of the thingamajigs like that in Tome of Battle, would add a further +1 or +2 on your Jump check, but I forget exactly which it was

SDS is level 7, meaning a 13th level warblade can access it and yeah, Thri-Keen can abuse Tiger Claw something fierce since that racial +30 to their jump check makes any check pretty much an auto-success....That said, for a non-thrikeen character, if you actually spent your feats on Acrobatic, Skill Focus and the Run feat just to max out one manoeuver, I'd be surprised honestly.

Taking 1 level of Barbarian (so Swordsage 9/Barbarian 1, or whatever) for Fast Movement would add +10 feet to speed and thus +4 to running Jump checks. Sadly the Monk's FM is an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with the Improved Ring of Jumping.

You could get a +30 enhancement from a Jump spell cast by a friendly wizard of similar level to yourself, in place of the Improved Ring of Jumping's +10 enhancement, but the Ring doesn't require any allies. With Boots of Speed (or just a friendly wizard to cast Haste on you), you can get a +30 foot enhancement bonus to movement speed (which means +12 on running Jump checks).

Also, playing a Xeph (Expanded Psionics Handbook, a medium-sized race with 30 ft. speed but a racial ability to gain extra speed for 3 rounds, 3/day, which is +30 feet at 9th-level onward) could add another +12 to the Jump check if making a running start and using their Burst racial ability. Also, as a Xeph the PC would qualify for the Mental Leap psionic feat, which adds +10 to a Jump check when expending psionic focus.

If not playing a Xeph, it's just a matter of the Human PC spending his racial bonus feat on Wild Talent, and then spending a normal feat slot on Mental Leap (at 2nd-level or later, though, since it requires 5 ranks in Jump). And yes, there would be room for this feat in either case (sure, it'd be sub-optimal for other purposes, but it all of these +Jump feats would make Swooping Dragon Strike more awesome, wouldn't they?). Though there won't be room for the Blade Meditation feat or whatever if you do that (at least not until a later level), assuming you don't multiclass into Psychic Warrior.

The Speed of Thought feat would have to wait until 12th-level (unless multiclassing into Psion or Psychic Warrior for 1 or 2 levels) for lack of enough feat slots beforehand, but it also adds +10 feet to movement speed when psionically focused, so that would be another +4 to Jump with a running start.

And I'm just going to ignore the expendable psionic crystals that add a one-time bonus to a particular skill check (I forget what they're called, and don't remember what type of bonus they grant, so it might not even matter, if they wouldn't stack).



.......so, lessee what kind of insane Jump bonus we could get without just using a Thri-Kreen to begin with. I'll assume 10th-level, and no bonus from Discipline Focus or Blade Meditation (since I can't remember which it is that does the skill boost, or by how much). I'll also assume there's no friendly 10th-level mage available to cast Jump on the fella.

Kung Fu Zak, 10th-level Xeph practicioner of the Sublime Way, psychic warrior 2/barbarian 1/swordsage 9 (with terrible multiclassing XP penalties, but who cares ). Strength 22 (Xeph have a -2 Str penalty, unfortunately). Feats: Acrobatic, Speed of Thought, Mental Leap, Skill Focus (Jump), Run, Psionic Meditation (just to use Mental Leap more often in battle). Notable Items: Belt of Giant Strength +4, Improved Ring of Jumping (+10 Jump), Boots of Haste (+30 speed for +12 to running Jump checks). Using everything at his disposal when he jumps at the foe with Swooping Dragon Strike.

Jump bonus with no running start: +46 (so average check result of 56)
Jump bonus after 20-foot sprint: +82 (so average check result of 92)
On a die roll of 18 or higher with a running jump, he'll have a check result between 100 and 102.

Wow I bow to your mastery of psionics as I had totally forgotten about the psionic classes that could abuse this.

 

[Creeping Death]

I think the Thrallherd is actually broken, campaign-wise. Being able to ruin things in combat has a fairly limited impact compared to having a fully self-replenishing army of completely mind-controlled slaves.

Not really considering that psionic dominate is a 4th level power and thus stopped by globe of invulnerability. I just recently played a psion 5/Thrallherd 9 in an adventure. Control elementals? check. Control pithy nobles? check. Control Adult Green Dragon? Nope, couldn't get past his spell resistance. There are plenty of things that can prevent a thrallherd from getting out of hand. It's only broken if all you are fighting is humanoid without spell resistance or magical protection.

It seems broken, but in actual play, I would have rather been a blaster, it would have helped way better against that green dragon.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Any items that screw around with actions/time ratio in D&D are... dangerous. And that belt grants a fightertype 3 times per day a move+full attack action... or an additional faa.

The horror, a fighter type can do in his round what a wizard can do in his. IMO, either a fighter should be able to move and FA, or spells of 4th level or higher need to take full round actions.

Burst of Speed from Arcana Evolved kind of addresses this problem (swift move action once per day for every 2 character levels).

We did change the BoB to be non-casting actions.

 

[Kunimatyu]

True. IMHO his motto is: "I'm SUPER! Thanks for asking!"

Re: Belt of Battle -- would it be a terrible nerf to have it grant either a Move action or an Attack action instead of granting a Standard action? That's my proposed nerf for the similarly just-plain-broken White Raven Tactics.

Cheers, -- N

I guess I'm still not seeing it -- the belt is granting its user ONE extra spell per day. That's nice, sure, but I hesitate to call it completely broken. And a melee type will want to think long and hard about whether or not giving up that belt of giant strength +6 is worth it.

In contrast, White Raven Tactics, with the right setup, can be used several times in a fight, making it rather gross.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I guess I'm still not seeing it -- the belt is granting its user ONE extra spell per day. That's nice, sure, but I hesitate to call it completely broken. And a melee type will want to think long and hard about whether or not giving up that belt of giant strength +6 is worth it.

In contrast, White Raven Tactics, with the right setup, can be used several times in a fight, making it rather gross.

Once per belt. That's usually once per battle. It's the equivalent of the Sudden Quicken feat, except you can grab full-round-action spells too. Also, keep in mind that by MIC rules, if you're not going to be switching out the belt, you're good to just put +Str enhancements on the same belt with no extra charge. And hey, Belt of Battle is so ridiculously underpriced vis-a-vis everything else, you can buy lots of them and toss +4 Strength on every last one and still be getting the better end of the deal for the price, IMO.

 

[Rolzup]

I go with a pretty simple philosophy. I've never had to actually say this with my current players, but I suppose that if I was running for a new group of people I probably would. Just to be sure we're all on the same page, y'see.

But anyway:

"If a spell, class, feat, magic item, or any combination of the above turns out to be problematic, I'm either going to ask you to just refrain from abusing it or I'll work with you to find a suitible compromise. On the other hand, if you feel that a character choice that you've made is proving underwhelming in play, I'm really unlikely to have any problem with your changing it...even if that means rebuilding your character from scratch."

The former has not yet happened. The latter, on the other hand, has. And a Dwarven Fighter/Marshal became a Warblade, much to everyone's satisfaction.

This is all apart from setting considerations, mind. I'm thinking of running a campaign at some point in a world without arcane and divine casters; obviously, such classes wouldn't be allowed in that game.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Once per belt. That's usually once per battle. It's the equivalent of the Sudden Quicken feat, except you can grab full-round-action spells too. Also, keep in mind that by MIC rules, if you're not going to be switching out the belt, you're good to just put +Str enhancements on the same belt with no extra charge. And hey, Belt of Battle is so ridiculously underpriced vis-a-vis everything else, you can buy lots of them and toss +4 Strength on every last one and still be getting the better end of the deal for the price, IMO.

Ah, so the problem is with cycling belts? Fair enough -- I require items like the belt to spend 24 hours attuning to the PC, so that they can't change out belts that easily, or pop augment crystals in and out of their equipment.

 

[Slife]

I'd say the Warblade.

It's one weakness is that it ain't usually that great at range.

Other than that, it's Fighter+++.

Which makes them almost competitive compared to everyone else.

Some definitely broken things (some previously mentioned, of course)
-Candles of Invocation
-Sarrukh
-Planar shepherd
-The Far Realm
-DMM: Persist (the others aren't quite so bad)
-The Hulking Hurler
-The Frenzied Berserker
-Custserv's awful, awful crusader rulings
-The delay death + Beastland Ferocity combo
-Celerity
-Arcane Fusion

 

[Rystil Arden]

Ah, so the problem is with cycling belts? Fair enough -- I require items like the belt to spend 24 hours attuning to the PC, so that they can't change out belts that easily, or pop augment crystals in and out of their equipment.

Well, that's a bigger problem, but only because the item is problematical to begin with. Even without cycling, for the given price, you are basically required to buy it in order to keep up if it is allowed and others are taking it. Throw your other simple enhancements on the belt too, if you like (Str, etc), but it is so brutally underpriced that you would be a fool not to take it as soon as gold allows (compare to Rod of Greater Quicken).

Also, do keep in mind that you did houserule to prevent the even greater abuse. There are indeed items that require a 24 hour period to function that are present in the MIC, and Belt of Battle is not one of them.

 

[Zurai]

I forget, does Swooping Dragon Strike take a standard action or a full-round action to use? And does it require you to jump up from adjacent to the target, or can you do a move action beforehand and then leap once you're close?

Also, what level was Swooping Dragon Strike? And wasn't there a Boost or Stance that improves your Jump checks? I forget, as I've only borrowed the book once, and only for a few days that time (I read a lot, but there's only so much I could memorize in half a week). Can't afford new books yet.

A monk/swordsage or monk/warblade could get a nice Jump bonus if allowed a move-action to approach first. Aside from that or playing a Thri-Kreen.....

SDS is a 7th level standard action strike - but you must jump completely over the target in order to get any effect out of the ability. For most non-optimized 13th level characters, that's going to be pretty tough against most CR13 enemies, especially if they aren't in Leaping Dragon Stance (which does jack all except make the jump-based Tiger Claw maneuvers plausible).