Just Plain Broken

[Cameron]

The only truly broken class (that a player could actually play in a normal game) is one that I havn't seen mentioned here: Planar Shepherd, from Faiths of Eberron. It can permanently act at a 10:1 time ratio at a high enough level - that's like a maximized empowered time stop... every round of every day.

It is bad, but is it as bad as getting 3 wishes per wildshape of the Fire plane by turning into an Efreet?

 

[Rystil Arden]

The problem with extreme arguments is that they are extreme.

*All* feats are a toss up. Which should I get? Which is better? Is there anything else I can do instead? Thus, we must *always* weigh up opportunity costs. *If* there was a feat chain that allowed +20AC and +20 to-hit, a fighter-type would be fairly stupid not to take it, three feats be darned, simply because it is the one that gives the most return on investment.

Saying that talking about opportunity cost is inherently flawed is itself inherently flawed...

Using opportunity cost itself is not inherently flawed. However, using 'opportunity cost' as an argument to claim that something overpowered and worth far more than the cost is balanced because you paid something for it is not itself a valid argument. There is no compelling argument to back up your claim other than 'but it costs three feats!', at least not yet. If you'd like to explain how a character can get more out of those three feats (keeping in mind that a single standout feat could be taken by the DMM character after she gets DMM), I would normally recommend that you take it to another thread on DMM, but you're probably okay to post here, since it would probably wind up helping the OP tangentially, because any feats you come up with that would dethrone DMM are among the broken things the OP wants to find.

 

[Cameron]

Using opportunity cost itself is not inherently flawed. However, using 'opportunity cost' as an argument to claim that something overpowered and worth far more than the cost is balanced because you paid something for it is not itself a valid argument. There is no compelling argument to back up your claim other than 'but it costs three feats!', at least not yet. If you'd like to explain how a character can get more out of those three feats (keeping in mind that a single standout feat could be taken by the DMM character after she gets DMM), I would normally recommend that you take it to another thread on DMM, but you're probably okay to post here, since it would probably wind up helping the OP tangentially, because any feats you come up with that would dethrone DMM are among the broken things the OP wants to find.

DMM is really only useful for a certain build: that of the warrior Cleric. You want to persist things like Divine Power, etc., to take over the role of the tank. In that regard, it would be powerful, but is it really any more powerful than the feats that allow you to have a 25+HD Large Gold Dragon mount? If you want to do other things (say being a Dweomerkeeper in FR) DMM is not all that flash as you would be feat starved. How about you want to play with TWF? You would be running into feat issues smart quick, which means you'd have to toss up between TWF and DMM. DMM also makes it difficult for the Epic feat that reduces the cost of metamagic as you need 4 metamagic feats to qualify. I have run into such issues making DMM warrior Clerics. Having made about 4 such "DMM abuse" PCs, I can confirm that feats are a big problem for them. The problem being along the lines of "no free feats" to "I don't have enough to do what I want".

I would rate it as a solid line of feats *if* you decide to go the Cleric Warrior path. For other forms of Cleric, it can be a major hinderance. Thus, I would rate it like Power Attack. Good for some, bad for others, and thus, a middle of the line to powerful feat, but not an overpowered one.

 

[green slime]

Much like I don't consider Toughness* to be weak.

Cheers, -- N

*) Opinion valid only for Nifft's house-ruled variant of Toughness.

LOL! Yes it is true, guilty as accused.

And yet...

It seems such an obvious fix.

Sort of like banning Brenzied Ferserkers...

 

[Rystil Arden]

DMM is really only useful for a certain build: that of the warrior Cleric. You want to persist things like Divine Power, etc., to take over the role of the tank. In that regard, it would be powerful, but is it really any more powerful than the feats that allow you to have a 25+HD Large Gold Dragon mount? If you want to do other things (say being a Dweomerkeeper in FR) DMM is not all that flash as you would be feat starved. How about you want to play with TWF? You would be running into feat issues smart quick, which means you'd have to toss up between TWF and DMM. DMM also makes it difficult for the Epic feat that reduces the cost of metamagic as you need 4 metamagic feats to qualify. I have run into such issues making DMM warrior Clerics. Having made about 4 such "DMM abuse" PCs, I can confirm that feats are a big problem for them. The problem being along the lines of "no free feats" to "I don't have enough to do what I want".

I would rate it as a solid line of feats *if* you decide to go the Cleric Warrior path. For other forms of Cleric, it can be a major hinderance. Thus, I would rate it like Power Attack. Good for some, bad for others, and thus, a middle of the line to powerful feat, but not an overpowered one.

Well, Dweomercheaters are on our list of broken things already. I'm not sure what feat gives you that dragon at normal levels (the best I can think is Draconic Cohort, which gives you a much much lower HD Dragon as a Cohort), but if there is one that gives that kind of 25-HD dragon in the first 10 levels, it is without qualification broken. And even if it gives it by level 20, it is vastly overpowered vis-a-vis Leadership and Draconic Cohort (both of which are already considered problems by some). Please tell us what feat gives the dragon so we can help the OP out with finding broken stuff!

As for TWF, I don't understand why it is relevant.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

Pun-Pun

 

[Laman Stahros]

Pun-Pun

I ask this on a regular basis and I never seem to get an answer. What is Pun-Pun?

 

[Nifft]

I ask this on a regular basis and I never seem to get an answer. What is Pun-Pun?

Google + "I'm feeling lucky" = http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cameron]

Well, Dweomercheaters are on our list of broken things already. I'm not sure what feat gives you that dragon at normal levels (the best I can think is Draconic Cohort, which gives you a much much lower HD Dragon as a Cohort), but if there is one that gives that kind of 25-HD dragon in the first 10 levels, it is without qualification broken. And even if it gives it by level 20, it is vastly overpowered vis-a-vis Leadership and Draconic Cohort (both of which are already considered problems by some). Please tell us what feat gives the dragon so we can help the OP out with finding broken stuff!

As for TWF, I don't understand why it is relevant.

Dweomerkeeper is not broken. I don't see why people keep saying it is. It *might* be broken if you combine it with the Initiate of Mystra feat, which is a FR only feat. Other than that... It is only so-so. And yes, I do have a Dweomerkeeper build that abuse DMM. It isn't that powerful. My Arcane Hierophant fares better.

The dragon thing is a result of the Devoted Tracker feat. Add Beastmaster and Halfling Outrider and stir. Note that it is a very specific build, and you don't have a lot of flexibility to it. You get a 25+HD dragon at level 20. More if you allow the Bloodlines rules from UA. I think the record was closer to 40HD.

TWF is a feat intensive chain. The issue I was trying to raise is that something like DMM precludes you taking feat intensive chains, which restricts you significantly in terms of what you can do with your character. The opportunity cost, if you will. If you are going to sink half your pre-epic feats into something, it had better be worth the effort (TWF as is patently isn't). That is why I don't think that feat intensive chains like DMM are all that broken.

The thing is, most of the "broken" stuff that is bandied around is very specific. If you are going for a particular build and concentrating on it to the exclusion of everything else, then yes, you *should* be more powerful than a generalist. It is not the feat or prc that is broken. It is just someone concentrating on something. A Charger build, for example is extremely ugly, but you don't see people up in arms about charging feats, do you? There is a preconception about DMM that I don't think is fair to the feat(s). As I have said, it is strong, but it is not "broken".

Planar Shepherd, on the other hand, *is* broken.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Dweomerkeeper is not broken. I don't see why people keep saying it is. It *might* be broken if you combine it with the Initiate of Mystra feat, which is a FR only feat. Other than that... It is only so-so. And yes, I do have a Dweomerkeeper build that abuse DMM. It isn't that powerful. My Arcane Hierophant fares better.

The dragon thing is a result of the Devoted Tracker feat. Add Beastmaster and Halfling Outrider and stir. Note that it is a very specific build, and you don't have a lot of flexibility to it. You get a 25+HD dragon at level 20. More if you allow the Bloodlines rules from UA. I think the record was closer to 40HD.

TWF is a feat intensive chain. The issue I was trying to raise is that something like DMM precludes you taking feat intensive chains, which restricts you significantly in terms of what you can do with your character. The opportunity cost, if you will. If you are going to sink half your pre-epic feats into something, it had better be worth the effort (TWF as is patently isn't). That is why I don't think that feat intensive chains like DMM are all that broken.

The thing is, most of the "broken" stuff that is bandied around is very specific. If you are going for a particular build and concentrating on it to the exclusion of everything else, then yes, you *should* be more powerful than a generalist. It is not the feat or prc that is broken. It is just someone concentrating on something. A Charger build, for example is extremely ugly, but you don't see people up in arms about charging feats, do you? There is a preconception about DMM that I don't think is fair to the feat(s). As I have said, it is strong, but it is not "broken".

Planar Shepherd, on the other hand, *is* broken.

Uhh, Dweomerkeeper can cast Wish without paying for it. Dweomerkeeper can ignore both SR and components. It is clearly more broken than the Frenzied Berserker, for instance. Until Planar Shepherd, it may well have been the most broken PrC in existence.

Whatever it takes to get the 25 HD dragon at level 20 is still broken. The 14 HD Young Gold Dragon is an ECL 20 character in its own right. The 26 HD Mature Adult Gold Dragon is way too strong for a pet.

As for TWF, it isn't broken like DMM, so it shouldn't matter. Bringing up TWF as an opportunity cost when it isn't as good as DMM is like saying you can't take Toughness three times. So what? You can still use Two-handed weapons, which is better for a Cleric.