Just Plain Broken

[Eldragon]

When discussing what is "broken" it is important to remember its all relative to PC power. If one Player has created a massively powerful character, and everyone else is playing Bards, the super muchkin certainly seems broken. But if every PC is equally optimized, they suddenly don't seem as broken.

It is the DM's job to scale encounters that commesurate with the PC's power.

So my definition of Broken is, whatever cannot be reasonably countered. Pun-Pun and 3.0 Mindblast come to mind immediatly (I hate psionics, so I have no idea what 3.5 is like).

P.S. Belt of Battle is broken because fighters are not allowed to have nice things.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Er, isn't that 1st level spell color spray AND sleep?

I agree somewhat with you since if you do push the check as high as possible, you end up with an obscene DC but I've found that in practice, any of the Toger Claw manoeuvers which have a DC based on the normal method, the opponents pretty much always pass it.

The thing is, without the stun effect AND the high save, I wouldn't bother with the strike and thus wouldn't try to maximise it. If you set the DC as 10+manouever level+str mod, most of the creatures you want to use it against will make their saves since Fort is a strong save for many creatures (Animals, Dragons, Giants, Magical Beasts, Outsiders and Vermin all of which tend to have great Fort saves) AND many creatures are just plain immune to stunning (Constructs, Undead, Plants, Oozes and Elementals) so really, the only creatures you'll actually Stun would be Fey, Humanoids (which depends on their class) and Monstrous Humanoids.

That's not a lot of creatures.....

re: White Raven Tactics As written, this is just a problematic manoeuver. I found the best way to keep it in control is to rule "An ally can only be subject to this manoeuver once per encounter".

Ah, but they get a save against Colour Spray and Sleep, Colour Spray is at a deadly-close range, and Sleep has a 1-full-round prohibitive casting time The save is the most important thing out of all that though. And yeah, if you use the regular method, they'll make the save most of the time, but at least you get to pump the save DC while maxing out Strength, an unexpected synergy for those that enjoy size-changing or shapechanging into critters with very high strengths. It isn't broken with the modified save, and that matters more to me than making sure it is necessarily the best manoeuvre out there, since if it is a bit weak, they can always not take it without any adverse effect o nthe game

 

[Arkhandus]

What I don't get is that most people don't think that certain combinations are broken, but others are, even though *both* requires significant investment in both class abilities and feats/skills, and are only, ultimately, good for one thing. Charger-dins, the above manouevre thing, etc., are OK. But DMM? Oh, Hell no!

Why the bias?

.....Huh? I never said anything about Swooping Dragon Strike except that it's broken, and demonstrating why. What exactly is the point you were trying to get at.....?

And really, the above is not a significant investment. My revised, simpler version above is just 1 class, an ECL+0 race, 2-3 feats that help out directly but aren't strictly necessary (as mentioned, the Jump spell contributes an aweful lot by itself if you can get it cast by a mid-level mage), 1 maneuver (out of the bunch you're likely to know), 1 stance (out of the handful you're likely to know), maybe 1 boost (out of the handful you're likely to know at that point), 1 friendly spell from an ally, and a few common magic items you're reasonably likely to have picked up anyway (the Ring of Jumping isn't needed if you rely on the Jump spell itself).

I included a handful of other feat choices that could be useful with it, but by no means are those feats useless outside of that one maneuver. That build could easily be doing lots of other things too. DM puts you in a cave with low ceiling? No problem, don't bother readying Swooping Dragon Strike that day, ready a maneuver that's more appropriate to those tight spaces, it's not like SDS (and the 1 boost you may have learned to use with it) cost you a big chunk of your 'maneuvers known' allotment. You've got plenty more, and at least most, possibly all, of your feats are effective in making full-attacks or using other maneuvers.

 

[Nifft]

P.S. Belt of Battle is broken because fighters are not allowed to have nice things.

If you think the Belt of Battle is for a Fighter, you're using it wrong.

Forcecage, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you think the Belt of Battle is for a Fighter, you're using it wrong.

Forcecage, -- N

Or, alternately, if the BoB was errataed to only be good for the Fighter (providing an extra attack for a Swift action three times a day or something like that, so a Quickened Snake's Swiftness), it wouldn't be such a problem.

 

[AllisterH]

P.S. Belt of Battle is broken because fighters are not allowed to have nice things.

That's not really the issue though. If the Belt of Battle simply said "These actions can't be used for spellcasting" or if it explicitly said "1 charge - You gain a move action, 2 charges - You gain a melee attack, 3 charges - you can make a full attack action", a lot fewer people would twitch uncontrollably.

Its just those spell wielders that make the belt seriously broken.

re: SDS
I think this is the perfect example of what the other person was mentioning in another thread. The interaction between splatbooks since I honestly hadn't considered psionics in the equation (we rarely have/use psionics over the years...)

 

[Slife]

You find the Far Realm broken? Doesn't it destroy your mind and typically end in getting eaten by some unknown horror?

It can't be broken if it works out to the DM's advantage, can it?

Anything involving it either dramatically increases power level (because of the time trait relative to the material plane), or is horribly nerfing. In the former case, planar bubble + sculpt spell (or planeshift, or gate) gives unlimited recovery/offensive setup in combat. Like a permanent timestop, but better. In the latter, gating/planeshifting/planarbubbling enemies is an instakill.

 

[Zurai]

All of these caveats don't matter, though, if you can use it. The fact is, if you can use SDS at all, considering the DC to Jump over many targets, it is already incredibly abusive because nothing can make those kinds of saves. If you are a Warblade and you can use the strike, you can make the game even less fun by recovering as a Swift action after leaping and using SDS with your move and standards, thus infinitely stunning the enemy unless it rolls a 20.

No, actually, you CANNOT do that. Please try to at least be familiar with the rules before you try to claim they're broken.

A Warblade cannot use maneuvers on the round in which he recovers maneuvers. At most, you'll be using SDS every other round - which, considering the damage output a barbarian of the same level would have, is pretty small potatoes.

EDIT: There's also a level 8 White Raven maneuver that stuns with no save whatsoever, and no "have to be able to jump over the Collosal Red Dragon" rule.

 

[Rystil Arden]

No, actually, you CANNOT do that. Please try to at least be familiar with the rules before you try to claim they're broken.

A Warblade cannot use maneuvers on the round in which he recovers maneuvers. At most, you'll be using SDS every other round - which, considering the damage output a barbarian of the same level would have, is pretty small potatoes.

EDIT: There's also a level 8 White Raven maneuver that stuns with no save whatsoever, and no "have to be able to jump over the Collosal Red Dragon" rule.

Please refrain from making personal attacks. You are correct that I forgot that when posting this, but that doesn't mean I'm not familiar with the rules. Of course, two Warblades (or a Warblade and a friend who dipped into Warblade to get the strike, etc) can very easily maintain the permastun I described, and even a single free stun is one free stun too many. It isn't a problem with the Warblade--it's a problem with SDS.

Re: Your Edit. Warmaster's Charge is majorly broken too. I'm surprised nobody mentioned it yet.

 

[AllisterH]

No, actually, you CANNOT do that. Please try to at least be familiar with the rules before you try to claim they're broken.

A Warblade cannot use maneuvers on the round in which he recovers maneuvers. At most, you'll be using SDS every other round - which, considering the damage output a barbarian of the same level would have, is pretty small potatoes.

Actually, he's somewhat right...Think about it.

1st round: You use SDS, target is stunned and can take no actions,
2nd round: You recover that round, target can now take actions,
3rd round: You use SDS once again and start from the top.

So basically you do normal damage for a single attack + 10d6 which admittedly isn't that hot at 13th level but the round in which the target is stunned, basically means you should expect your party to wipe it out.

That is the big issue with the stun effect that basically you use this against your BBEG and what should've been a multiround affair is basically a two round affair.

Then again, as a DM, creating a BBEG that is immune to stunning is not exactly hard...