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D&D 4E Just played my first 4E game

It's because 3.5 wasn't a new edition. It had 3 years of development with customer feedback after development on 3.0 ended. Comparing 3.0 and 4th is a clear comparison, but comparing a brand new game to one which had three years of development to it on top of the years of development on it's original core system is a bit slanted (especially when those three years of development are on refining the system, rather than rebuilding it).

And in the end it was the last set of core rulebooks that was purchased by D&D players and it's what WotC has to compete against when asking consumers to switch.

Really they chose when to release 4e and when to start development on it...and if, as a company, they chose a timeframe that doesn't allow them to make a better (or even comparable) product (not claiming one or the other is "better")than the last one you released, that's the companies fault...not the consumers for comparing them. This is just ridiculous in premise.
 

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If you say "The player is making the decision" as a means to circumvent the idea that a character (PC or NPC, were he real), faced with the same stimuli, would have the odd experience that what was possible through supposedly mundane means at 1 am is not possible at 3 pm, you have entered into territory that feels very much like accepting the program limits of a video game to me.

RC

The PC does not have to have that odd experience, though I grant the player might.

So, because the player has this odd experience (that it's harder or impossible for his character to set up the move, given the same or a very similar fictional state), you see that as a "program limit" on the choices a player can make.

That makes sense, I see where you're coming from and why that can be an issue for you - and more importantly, why you describe it as video game-y.

I don't see this as a problem because:

  • I don't have a problem with the game limiting powerful abilities. Some stuff you can't do as often as you'd like because it's too good!
  • I don't have a problem having my choices limited as a player in this manner. If I have a power that allows me to do something a limited number of times per day, I'm not going to complain that I can't do it as often as I'd like - the power gives me the ability to do it once successfully where before I had no chance!
  • Tied to the above - now that I have the ability to do something that I couldn't without the power, I don't have a problem describing attempts to use that trick again having failed - even given the same fictional situation. The power allows me to raise my chance at success - in the fictional world - from 0% to x%.
 

Mourn and Imaro's points are both valid.

It is perfectly fair to compare 4Ed to 3Ed, 3.5's initial Core, and 3.5's final version, depending upon what you're comparing.

If you're comparing initial release to initial release, comparing 4Ed to 3Ed (or 3.5 Core, given the changes that were made) makes sense. There, you're examining base states: what can you do right out of the starting gate?

If you're comparing overall options between 4Ed to 3.5 on the basis of lessons learned between editions (like comparing the transition from 2Ed to 3Ed Core) then its the latest incarnation of 3.5 you need to examine. Then, you're asking: Given all the refinement & developments in game design that happened in 3.X, what changes cropped up in the new release that do or don't make sense (IYHO). This matters because the latest version of a game is the version against which the newest version must compete against in the market.

IMHO, 4Ed is a lesser game on both criteria. That isn't to say its not fun or anything else- just that it doesn't have the initial flexibility or depth of the 3.X Core books, and there were certain definite late-stage improvements to 3.X that could have been translated into the Core of 4Ed.
 


What angers me most about 4th, especially after seeing it and playing it, is that Wizards could have just fixed 3rd ed with many of these ideas and made a better product than either is seperate. I stack these editions side by side and I'm not sure which is better. I know that there is a missed oportunity though.

Indeed.

Sorry about the long post!

Not at all! It was a very interesting read.

(IMHO, at least.)


RC
 

The PC does not have to have that odd experience, though I grant the player might.


And, it is the player having this odd experience that is important. In a video game, one accepts the limitation of the programming, and simply deals with that odd experience. I expect more from a pnp rpg.

That makes sense, I see where you're coming from and why that can be an issue for you - and more importantly, why you describe it as video game-y.

Huh. People really can see another person's pov on the interweb. I've heard of this happening, but I never thought it would happen to me. :lol:

I don't see this as a problem because:

Hey, I can respect that too. I understand that not everyone will see this as a problem. When I say "I expect more from a pnp rpg" I really mean "I expect more of what I want".....and different systems are naturally going to appeal more to people who want different things.


RC
 

It's because 3.5 wasn't a new edition. It had 3 years of development with customer feedback after development on 3.0 ended. Comparing 3.0 and 4th is a clear comparison, but comparing a brand new game to one which had three years of development to it on top of the years of development on it's original core system is a bit slanted (especially when those three years of development are on refining the system, rather than rebuilding it).

Not to be funny but 4th had 4+ years of development with several 3.5e products to test and and get feedback on. Wizards admitted it themselves with products like the Book of Nine Swords, and others mentioned prominently on the podcasts leading up to the release of 4th.

Besides, if 4th is as good as it's supposed to be, it should stand up to 3.5 as a whole. The only argument that should be ignored is that there is are less material for 4th.

However, basing the comparison strictly on the 3.0 or 3.5 PHBs, I have more flexibility in character options and concepts for character creation than I am currently allowed with the 4th PHB. Multi-classing alone creates a multitude of possibilities.

* Note * I am not for or against either side at the moment so do not take my comments out of context. I am simply stating the facts as I currently see them. I also wish to level the playing field.
 

Mourn and Imaro's points are both valid.

It is perfectly fair to compare 4Ed to 3Ed, 3.5's initial Core, and 3.5's final version, depending upon what you're comparing.

If you're comparing initial release to initial release, comparing 4Ed to 3Ed (or 3.5 Core, given the changes that were made) makes sense. There, you're examining base states: what can you do right out of the starting gate?

If you're comparing overall options between 4Ed to 3.5 on the basis of lessons learned between editions (like comparing the transition from 2Ed to 3Ed Core) then its the latest incarnation of 3.5 you need to examine. Then, you're asking: Given all the refinement & developments in game design that happened in 3.X, what changes cropped up in the new release that do or don't make sense (IYHO). This matters because the latest version of a game is the version against which the newest version must compete against in the market.

IMHO, 4Ed is a lesser game on both criteria. That isn't to say its not fun or anything else- just that it doesn't have the initial flexibility or depth of the 3.X Core books, and there were certain definite late-stage improvements to 3.X that could have been translated into the Core of 4Ed.
Well, since it's all IYHO and IHMO, it is of course a subjective statement, so take mine with the same reservations:

There are a lot of core concepts that needed to be changed to achieve many aspects of the design goals for 4E, like game balance over all levels and classes, as well as against all monsters, extending the Sweet Spot, defining tiers of play, extensibility, simple character creation, easier monster use and encounter building, easier NPC and monster creation. I think a lot of the 3E core mechanics and assumptions - including some of its flexibilities did stand in the way of this.
That is unfortunate, and it might always be a limitation for 4E. But overall, I think the design goals and the results are worth the limitations. If you don't agree, well, 3E is still there. If you think there must be a "better" way, I just haven't seen it. I cannot claim to have seen the majority of d20 OGL Systems or anything, but the stuff I've seen so far did not convince me. I need to see actual "proof".


One big thing in 3E is the differences between spellcasting and weapon combat. These are two big subsystems that try to affect the same aspect: Combat. While both used some broadly similar concepts, there was a fundamental asymmetry in it that makes the act of balancing the system impossible. Bo9S basically is the attempt to have both parts use a similar subsystem, and thus resolving the asymmetry (but it aims only for the combat system). The same is done by the 4E power system.
Similar problems though existed with the skill system and the spell system. Again, skils and spells often try to solve the same problems (Knock vs Open Lock, Knowledge (History) with Legend Lore, Teleport vs Survival). And again, these systems can't be easily balanced. 4E tries a new approach, and splits combat spells and "skill" utility spells into different subsystems, and links them stronger to the subsystems for combat and skills with th combat powers and rituals.



A different example (on differences in flexibility) might be class creation:
It was very easy to create a class for 3E, because there were little guidelines for it, and you just had to create one to three core features. But it was hard to figure if the class was really balanced or how it could break the game.
4E requires more work, since it gives you stricter guidelines to achieve the balance it aims for, and you might spend a lot of work creating new class powers and features that fit the "theme" of the class. It was a lot easier in 3E - many classes have only two-to-three out-standing class features (Feats for Fighters, Barbarians with Rage and Damage Reudction, Rogue with Sneak Attack, Duelist with "Int to AC"), and most of the variation is done by scaling them. (Get extra dice, get more feats, Rage benefits improve further and so on).

But 4E demands you to create powers that cover 30 levels - not one for every level, but the levels you get powers (which is still the majority), you need more then just one - you need 3-4! That means you devote more "design & development" into each class, and that you also need more page count to cover its abilities. So, in the end, we end up with 8 instead of 12 classes.
 

Not to be funny but 4th had 4+ years of development with several 3.5e products to test and and get feedback on. Wizards admitted it themselves with products like the Book of Nine Swords, and others mentioned prominently on the podcasts leading up to the release of 4th.

Besides, if 4th is as good as it's supposed to be, it should stand up to 3.5 as a whole. The only argument that should be ignored is that there is are less material for 4th.

However, basing the comparison strictly on the 3.0 or 3.5 PHBs, I have more flexibility in character options and concepts for character creation than I am currently allowed with the 4th PHB. Multi-classing alone creates a multitude of possibilities.

* Note * I am not for or against either side at the moment so do not take my comments out of context. I am simply stating the facts as I currently see them. I also wish to level the playing field.
Flexibility is not the only possible goal in game design.

The design work for 4E probably didn't focus on creating all flexibility out of the gate - goals like "easy of play" or "balanced classes" or "extending the sweet spot" look more like a primary concern.

Of course, that doesn't tell us whether the game is good for you, but it explains the differences between 3E and 4E. 3E might have gotten the flexibility right, but it was weaker on other areas.

On a tangent note, I remember the software engineering "project triangle":
Your new application can be:
- Good
- Fast
- Cheap
Pick any two.

I wonder what the game design triangle look like:
- Fast
- Flexible
- Balanced
?
 

Hey wow, a response from the OP 5 pages in! I wonder if I'll get another 9 pages in! :) There's only one thing I really want to comment on.

The kind of games we like to play value strength of character, group dynamic, interplay between the characters and good storytelling.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel the new rules make that easier.

Hey, you don't have to apologize to me. I was just trying to understand where you're coming from. You don't like it, that's perfectly fine.

What I will say is that I don't really think the rules are supposed to to give you the things in the quote above. I think you acquire that through playing with a group of people who also want those things. In other words, it's play style, and not rules. If you feel the rules hinder this in some way, you'd have to point me to specific instances where you felt that in order for me to comment any further.

True there are more things to do inside combat, but that's always been where DnD has focused its rules, and in truth I think combat needs the most focus. I also believe that 4e presents plenty of options outside of combat, and that if you look you'll find them.

DMs and players create the story. The rules are the bones, the dice give it shape. But it's really you and your group that determines what the hell the beastie looks like. I don't think any set of rules can do that.
 

Into the Woods

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