Justifying Multiple PrCs and High Level Gameplay

[Pinotage]

I've got two questions that I'd appreciate some thought on:

1) I've seen a whole host of characters posted here and on other ENWorld forums and a significant number of them contain more than one, often as many as 3 or 4, prestige classes tagged onto a base class. I know that's probably allowed, but how do you justify something like that? Do you allow characters to take multiple prestige classes? It just seems to be against the spirit of the whole concept, IMO.

2) A lot of people play high level/epic games, and a good number read those similar games in the Story Hour forum. I'm wondering how you justify having a huge number of high level characters and villians around. High level enemies could lay waste to villages, even towns in the blink of an eye, powerful creatures can conquer cities on their own. Where do all those high level creatures your PCs face come from and how do you justify them being there? I guess I'm after some idea of how intelligent high level creatures survive. How do you justify the evil/good balance in high level campaigns?

Having lost 4 clerics in a 11th level game, I'm having problems finding plausable reasons why there are so many high level clerics about to take the place of those 'dead' ones. And, given the creatures 11th level PCs generally face, I find it hard to swallow that those creatures haven't made a name for themselves yet, or killed and conquered vast territory. Or at the very least become legendary.

Thanks!

Pinotage

 

[Enkhidu]

1) This is really a personal preference issue. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to handle PrCs. In my experience, PrCs come one to a customer unless plot nudges one PC or another onto a completely different path (there's no accounting for organic character growth).

2) This ones a matter of scope. Let's look at (contact)'s story hour an an example (starting with the RttToEE and extremely low level PCs and moving up into the lower echelons of Epic-dom). Watch how their scope increases - they start off small, in villages and towns, then get caught up in the Temple, so that by the time the skip out of there they are "name level" style adventurers. What happened then? Then they start gallivanting all over the place - widening the scope - to meet even more interesting people, killing them, and taking their stuff. Suddenly they weren't playing on the local level anymore. Now their dealing with the granddaddy of all thing Evil in Greyhawk - Iuz his-self.

So, back to your situation - what sort of scope are these 11th level PCs dealing with? Have they moved to the "nationa"l level yet? If not, then why not?

 

[Christopher Lambert]

I've got two questions that I'd appreciate some thought on:

1) I've seen a whole host of characters posted here and on other ENWorld forums and a significant number of them contain more than one, often as many as 3 or 4, prestige classes tagged onto a base class. I know that's probably allowed, but how do you justify something like that? Do you allow characters to take multiple prestige classes? It just seems to be against the spirit of the whole concept, IMO.

I haven't seen a good justification.

2) A lot of people play high level/epic games, and a good number read those similar games in the Story Hour forum. I'm wondering how you justify having a huge number of high level characters and villians around.

The same way you justify the high-level PCs. Why are the heroes adventuring? If you can answer that, you can answer why there are so many villains around.

High level enemies could lay waste to villages, even towns in the blink of an eye, powerful creatures can conquer cities on their own. Where do all those high level creatures your PCs face come from and how do you justify them being there? I guess I'm after some idea of how intelligent high level creatures survive. How do you justify the evil/good balance in high level campaigns?

Just because someone is evil doesn't mean they're going to go destroy villages, towns, or what not. Not only does that draw unwarranted attention, but what gain does that get for them? Their ambitions don't always run the same way either - they're not always out for ultimate power. However, that's a very common theme in adventures and novels, so it makes villains look bad (and usually stupid, too).

Demon worshippers are the only villains that I know of who would do so (for preparing a sacrifice), but usually you don't need to sacrifice more than a few hundred people. (Even in the Dark Sun setting, no city had to sacrifice more than 1,000 people per year... and these cities were led by the vilest living beings on that world.)

Having lost 4 clerics in a 11th level game

How!? They're frankly the strongest class. I mean once I can see, but four?

I'm having problems finding plausable reasons why there are so many high level clerics about to take the place of those 'dead' ones. And, given the creatures 11th level PCs generally face, I find it hard to swallow that those creatures haven't made a name for themselves yet, or killed and conquered vast territory. Or at the very least become legendary.

Not every high level character/creature isn't interested in making a name for itself, and so forth. Most evil dragons just want to be left alone, and maybe keep a few slaves. Only a few want to go artifact hunting, rule kingdoms, or otherwise pull off schemes. Neither have a reason to destroy villages, except the vengeful types that say they'll kill 1,000 people for every scale you ripped off of them. (Don't fight that kind of dragon.)

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

I've always felt this should depend on the PrC. There are some that are more or less just learning a certain set of traits - particularly the shorter 3 or 5 level ones. Others have a feel that they are a goal in and of themselves.

If the PrC is very much part of an organisation - Mage of the Arcane Order, or if it has a divine focus (which by extension requires dedication), then I'm more reluctant to let a player just swap out of it. That doesn't mean I wouldn't let them - just that they'd need character driven motives (beyond just "but it'd be really cool") and may need to deal with certain in game repurcussions (if e.g. they've just "abandoned the brotherhood")

Others - and particularly things like the Master Thrower or the Exotic Weapons Master are builds that are ripe for cherry picking a level or two.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Concerning question number one about the PrC's, I have no problem allowing a character to have two or three PrC's (I've only had one character with two of them thus far in our 11th level game and a character looking at a second one) as long as it is properly RPed. If the character has the proper requirements, right attitude, and justifies taking it in terms of her character, then they can have as many as they want.

I don't think multiple PrCs go against the spirit of the PrC's. To me, the spirit of the PrC's is to add flavor and options for character while making them special/unique. I don't see why a character should only have one. It is just like having two or three core class levels. For this you suffer a penalty, but it is still allowed and serves to create a character that reflects the one you are playing.

PS - I believe the class should reflect the character being played. I never start a game out with an idea on which way my PC will be progressing. I've started out a Sorceror before, ended up with a Cleric/Sorceror by the end, and *never* saw that coming. However, that was where her character took her in terms of the game and thats where I went. If I had known of a good PrC to give her that flavor of her personality, god, etc. then I would have taken it.

To me, classes and PrCs are about representing the growing character and if you need more then one to accomplish it, then so be it.

Okay, and finally on to number two (wow, didn't realize I had typed that much).

I look at it this way, for every two big bad guys out there, there is one good guy. What you have to remember however it that the good guys are willing and capable of working together. The bad guys aren't quite as cohesive. Hence, let us say an adult dragon takes over a town. It won't be long before two or three adult dragons are coming along to drive that dragon out or simply kill him.

Bad guys at that level are not dumb. They realize that they have to not only be able to take a city, but also quickly consolidate their power and secure their holdings before those damn heroes come along to kick them out.

As for having a certain number of high level heroes in the game, there shouldn't be a huge number. However, this is a game and a certain amount of disreality must be remembered. The heroes always need a new enemey and someone who could challenge them. Why? Because thats the way the game works. No matter how real of a game you want to play, this is arguably the top rule - the heroes need an enemy.

In terms of the game itself, worlds do have to have a set number of baddies. And of course you can't have five or six 20th level baddies in one general area and still maintain a semibalance of reality. That is why PCs as of 9th level have access to spells like Teleport. They aren't expected to be in the same area for the rest of their lives. They ought to be running about and finding those big baddies from all parts of the world.

But still there are only a set number of these creatures. After a while, PCs get access to spells like Plane Shift and Etheral Jaunt. Why? Because there are a lot more baddies on other planes and the PCs need access to those places in order to battle them.

And intelligent, high level creatures survive by staying low key. Sure there are a few big baddies with kingdoms and armies to their name, but a lot of them don't want to be in the spotlight. Its too much attention and attention leads to those damn heroes who always come walking along. And no matter how much bravado or sense of self-power a bad guy might have, there is still some sense that one of those groups might be bigger and stronger then he is. Hence, work behind the scenes and with several layers of lackies to hide behind.

One way around this whole problem is taking things into the political realm. When here, your enemy might be a 5th level aristocrat who you could slice down in two rounds without breaking a sweat. However, if you do so you risk loosing your lands to the King and facing excommunication from the church because that aristocrat is the King's well-liked cousin.

You mention the Story Hours and one game that has probably done this better then any of the others is Sepulchrave (damn, I've been using that SH as an example a lot lately). The SH starts off at 16th level (though the game has been running a lot longer) and it takes the PCs through political and extraplaner hurdle after hurdle. Another thing that the SH does is put the PCs lives at the center stage. The next battle against the next CR isn't always at the foremost of the PCs thought. Sometimes they are more interested in fixing a keep, trying to redeem a low ranking evil character, or something else that doesn't even demand a sword swing.

Guess I ought to get to those last few points too without boring anyone to tears (and not going off onto tangents anymore).

Having four or five 11th level cleric is an area is not too far of a stretch I don't think. I think of my game as somewhat low level magic and this is about the number of 11th level clerics I have in a certain kingdom at the level of bishops and such along with two or three others of differing religions. Something like this is a hard curve to create, but by these levels, the PCs shoudl also have access to Resurrect, even if their cleric is dead (I'm sure that cleric has some other clergy friends). In theory, at this level, the PCs are somewhat connected to their PCs and would rather see them come back then dead. That should help with that problem, but those darn PCs don't always play by the helpful theories, do they?

After that, I say it is a matter of suspending that reality for a bit to get more PCs. Perhaps the PC is a foreigner or been stuck in another dimension for a few hundred years where time passes more slowly. A PC at that level can have a more creative/flavorful history/past and be more believable because of his powers.

As for making a name for themselves, any human of 9th-11th level, unless trying to keep their existence quite, does have a name for himself. In my kingdom, they each have their nicknames within "their circles" (the church, merc groups, the king's guard, the wizard's guild, etc.) and people of similar professions know about them. Of course, about one in every nearly 800 people are that this level. once they reach about 13th level, they have people in the general populace who know about them and the bards enjoy singing about them. This isn't to say this can't happen before, but this is a round-a-bout in my world.

Concerning monsters, I can well imagine a 13CR monster is well-known. You have to remember that an imp could be well-known in an area. Of course, people don't know it is an imp, but rather some ghost or god's wrath that is striking people dead. Medieval people are ignorant of magic and how it works. To them, nearly everything is magical. They are also highly superstitious. Monsters waiting to eat them are always about and tales are told of everything, whether real or not. In a lot of ways, this helps those "legendary" creatures since their truth gets jumbles away in a plethora of other creatures and strange happenings.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

1) Well, some class combos and prestige class combos kind of feel really unlikely in roleplaying sense. However, if you know the world you play in, and multitude of prestige classes come from being in organization that teaches the arts, it's less an issue.

For example, character who travels a lot, might drift between "guids" or his areas of focus. If some area in land is known for certain monster type, like undead, it's more likely around that area prestige classes that deal with undead (both evil and good variations) are more common.

Or it might be change of character's focus of position within clerical order. He might start as monk, become paladin within same order, then go to paladin PrC, then paladin-monk PrC and so on.

It's not simple or easy to justify everything. Those things depend a lot on world, and how dm sees prestige classes.

2) In high level games, it's important not to "overthink" how things work. D&D world is not logical because D&D system makes it not to be. Whole level issue is kind of weird, because it affects skills too. In real world training, having long standing in profession, intelligence nad age, have lot to do with skill level. In D&D 15 year old girl can have epic levels and 22 ranks in knowledge (history), and 45 year old 1:s level professional smith has smithing max 4 ranks.

Whole npc-level thing is kind of suspicious. I'd say, it's strange there is so many lv 1 people in this world, supposingly according to dmg.

Lv 11 character doesn't have to be legendary. Why, he might be from Sunnydale, liitle village that lies very near to Wastes of Doom, and monsterfighting (and leveling) is just way to survive. Doesn't mean rest of world ever hears from him.

And if there are places like this, and all those dangerous wilderness areas, there are bound to be quite a number of people who take up arms. Not everyone gets that high level though. Only those who take the greatest risks. They might be quite famious back to some very small area.

It's not that hard to get to lv 11. It slows a lot after 13th. IMO at least.

In fantasy world, where numerous monsterous creatures live (as by D&D), alone justifies there need to be pretty many high level characters to keep them at check. And sometimes bad guys win. But getting famious in such world recuires much more than simle leveling. One got to travel, see and be seen in different places, and keep rockstar mentality when doing that heroic stuff. Or villanous stuff for that matter.

 

[painandgreed]

1) I've seen a whole host of characters posted here and on other ENWorld forums and a significant number of them contain more than one, often as many as 3 or 4, prestige classes tagged onto a base class. I know that's probably allowed, but how do you justify something like that? Do you allow characters to take multiple prestige classes? It just seems to be against the spirit of the whole concept, IMO.

I haven't seen that many PrC in RL yet, let alone multiples. IMC, PrC are usually a matter of special training. They're special orders, secret societies, or things the characters was built to from creation. In order to go up in any of the levels, they'd have to find a similar PrC NPC and learn from them. It would be possible for some characters to gain more than one but justifications would be individual to that character. For something like Dragon Disciple, the PC would pretty much have to make intentions of becoming one known since 1st level and be commited to seeing it through. You just don't wake up on day and decide to explore your dragon heritage. The same character might want to become a Red Wizard. He'd have to not only fulfill the requirements but also roll play his way into the Red Wizard organization. Then I might see multiple PrCs. Similarly, if they were an evil PrC, become redeemed and then switched to a good PrC, they could have multiple PrC, but I think it all goes to not simply letting characters take any PrC they want to willy nilly.

2) A lot of people play high level/epic games, and a good number read those similar games in the Story Hour forum. I'm wondering how you justify having a huge number of high level characters and villians around. High level enemies could lay waste to villages, even towns in the blink of an eye, powerful creatures can conquer cities on their own. Where do all those high level creatures your PCs face come from and how do you justify them being there? I guess I'm after some idea of how intelligent high level creatures survive. How do you justify the evil/good balance in high level campaigns?

Well, villages full of peasants are treasure generators. Most creatures with intelligence don't just slaughter them. They take them over. Even wandering orc tribes IMC don't just kill peasants (unless they're really hungery). They just take all their stuff so they can come back next year and take all their stuff again. High level monsters probably just don't eat that much. Typically, the larger the creature the less percentage of their body weight they need to comsume every day. Unless magically ravenous, even a small cow herd would keep a large monster satisifed long enough for adventurers to be called in. Intelligent high level monsters and NPCs do constantly fight all the time taking land back from eachother. This constant warfare tends to produce a supply of new high levels as fast as they die. For the most part, things are in equilibrium and communications are poor enough that word of many people's exploits rarely travel beyond their region. This differs when they do something epic (not in the 20+ level sence) and bards pick it up (or perhaps they pay the bards to write the songs) or they begin a campaign that ranges outside their region such as war that causes word of them to travel farther.

 

[Zappo]

Sometimes two prestige classes are similar in concept and work well together. For example, I'm going to make a bladesinger/mystical knight. They are both fighter/wizard; the bladesinger is more flavorful but the mystical knight, being basically flavorless, goes well with anything else.

 

[Arnwyn]

1) I've seen a whole host of characters posted here and on other ENWorld forums and a significant number of them contain more than one, often as many as 3 or 4, prestige classes tagged onto a base class. I know that's probably allowed, but how do you justify something like that? Do you allow characters to take multiple prestige classes?

In theory I do, but it has to be through normal character growth and interaction in the campaign world over time.

In any case, I have yet to see any justification for multiple PrCs IMC.

Where do all those high level creatures your PCs face come from and how do you justify them being there? I guess I'm after some idea of how intelligent high level creatures survive. How do you justify the evil/good balance in high level campaigns?

IMC, I have certain regions that are more "high level" than others. It's usually in places like "the mysterious south" and the like. With this set in place, the PCs can grow their characters and the world will still make sense as the campaign progresses. I'm also thankful for simple beginner-level demographics - if the PCs can rise up to high levels in X amount of time, given the population of my campaign world, so can Y others in that time. Y is a reasonable amount. Again, it only makes sense.

This is still rare, though - for the most part, I can generally only see very high level characters "graduating" to the Outer Planes. At least, that's how it works IMC.

 

[Psion]

1) I've seen a whole host of characters posted here and on other ENWorld forums and a significant number of them contain more than one, often as many as 3 or 4, prestige classes tagged onto a base class. I know that's probably allowed, but how do you justify something like that? Do you allow characters to take multiple prestige classes? It just seems to be against the spirit of the whole concept, IMO.

Well, for one, it seems obvious to me that the "spirit of the whole concept" is quite a bit different for some people than others. Some people seem to beleive that prestige classes should ONLY be for secret cabals and so forth. For others, that's fine, but it may merely represent specialized knowledge or concept. I fall largely into the latter camp, FWIW.

I have yet to have a player take more than one PrC. It seems most of my players would happily play a single class their whole career.

That said, I have a fair number of NPCs with multiple PrCs and don't really see the problem. In fact, some game have PrCs specifically designed to be second PrCs.

In most cases, it's simply a case of a character having lived a varied life. I used to operate reactors. Now I work on radar systems. Am I against the spirit of the rules of life?

Another possibility is when the conepts have good systery. An immediate example that comes to mind in my game is a conjurer/summoner/acolyte of the skin. Who better to infuse himself with the essence of demons than someone who was trafficing with them in the first place.

For my current campaign, I made a little rule file for namegen that churns out random characters (race/class/faction combinations). I throw out the sillier ones, but occasionally, a concept appeals to me enough that I run with it.

Some examples:

• Naranjani Yuan Ti Halfblood Egoist/Psychic Warrior/Holy Warrior/Sorcerer/Arcane Blade/Dragon Mage - This one is sort of an abberant, from an old version of my rule file that tended to overdo the classes on Naranjani characters. My gut reaction is to trim the classes down to Naranjani Yuan Ti Halfblood Holy Warrior/Sorcerer/Arcane Blade/Dragon Mage. The arcane blade is a class from quint sorcerer whose basic concept is a sorcerer that uses magic to enhance meleee combat. Holy warrior (or unholy warrior) from green ronin is not an unreasonable starting place for such a class if the character's deity is particularly concerned with magic. Finally, Dragon Mage is a class from Bastion's Spells and magic that is more tuned to high level characters that, with the proper treasure selection, is an attractive option for fighter mage types. It makes sense to me that an arcane blade who discovers the intracies of dragon magic would want to pursue it as the next step in their development.
• Prime Jungle Dwarf Nomad/Mind Fighter/Metamind/Shadow Mind - This one makes a lot of sense to me as it is. Mind fighter is a homespun class specializing in telepathic combat; this nomad obviously got into enough situations where that is important that he developed his abities that direction. Metamind is also another specialization class vice cabal-type class that trades variety of powers for power points. Finally is shadow mind - this seems a fairly logical route for someone who is already expending effort towards attacking someone telepathically. The only real weakness with the concept is that nomad does not fit well with shadow mind. I might change his class to telepath, shaper, or seer.

And so on. The upshot here is that these particular characters only have one class that is strongly associated with a given group or secretive knowledge. Even if it weren't so, it's possible that a character could change affiliations (though that may be highly campaign dependant.)