Justifying Multiple PrCs and High Level Gameplay
- Thread starter Pinotage
- Start date
Trickstergod
First Post
1) Depends on the prestige class, really. For example, the Archmage and Heirophant are fairly generic prestige classes for powerful mages and priests respectively. It would make sense for most any high level caster to take one of those, whether it was a straight wizard or a wizard/red wizard. By that same token, a high level mystic theurge would, at the apex of their power, be justified in picking up both levels in archmage and heirophant alike. That's three prestige classes right there that all, conceivably, fit with one another.
Sure, I think that some degree of control should be put upon prestige classes, but there's decent enough reason for having multiples of just about any of the prestige classes on one character. Just as long as it more or less fits the character concept.
2) The one game I really plan having go to epic scope is a world-spanning game that's crossed thousands of miles and met many NPC's, from reclusive researchers to rakshasa rajah's playing at ruler. Alliteration intentional. Most of those high powered encounters have some degree of purpose to them. Or, failing that, have been relatively middling monsters that I just threw in rather hefty clumps against the PC's. The butcher monsters have been guarding artifacts or nestled away from society or are humanoid, anyway, so work within society rather than wreaking havoc upon it. Those PC's that have been replaced have also generally come from all parts of the world and, in general, have a little purpose to their presence. So it's rarely like they just randomly cropped up one day out of the village the PC's were hanging out at. And sometimes they have made a name for their self - but it might only be among their own people (which could be the whole of a nation, or possibly a large city-state).
So long as these individuals have some goal going for them and an appropriate hook to grab them and make them follow it along, then it's not too hard justifying them.
I do get a little grumpy at the idea that mid to high level people are relatively common and their encounters thusly so.
Sure, I think that some degree of control should be put upon prestige classes, but there's decent enough reason for having multiples of just about any of the prestige classes on one character. Just as long as it more or less fits the character concept.
2) The one game I really plan having go to epic scope is a world-spanning game that's crossed thousands of miles and met many NPC's, from reclusive researchers to rakshasa rajah's playing at ruler. Alliteration intentional. Most of those high powered encounters have some degree of purpose to them. Or, failing that, have been relatively middling monsters that I just threw in rather hefty clumps against the PC's. The butcher monsters have been guarding artifacts or nestled away from society or are humanoid, anyway, so work within society rather than wreaking havoc upon it. Those PC's that have been replaced have also generally come from all parts of the world and, in general, have a little purpose to their presence. So it's rarely like they just randomly cropped up one day out of the village the PC's were hanging out at. And sometimes they have made a name for their self - but it might only be among their own people (which could be the whole of a nation, or possibly a large city-state).
So long as these individuals have some goal going for them and an appropriate hook to grab them and make them follow it along, then it's not too hard justifying them.
I do get a little grumpy at the idea that mid to high level people are relatively common and their encounters thusly so.
Evilhalfling
Adventurer
as for multiple PrC - hasn't come up much - my games usually run 3rd-11th level. With very few PrC used.
For highlevel clerics, the last campaign almost managed to destroy the druidic order in a large country, by being friendly. A 7th lvl NPC was found dead in his circle, then PC 7th druid and his fiancee a 9th lvl druid NPC were slain in one battle, dying romantically.
The head druid, a 16th lvl brusier went with the party to avenge them, failed a save, turned into an insane pigeon and was stuffed into a bag of holding, which ruptured, destroying him forever. A Player brough in another 10th lvl druid, met with the one remaining druid of the area (a NE vermine druid) and joined the party, I ruled that if he died, the land's druidic order would decay and be gone within a generation, luckily he survived to the end of the campaign. Hopefully to spend several years training up apperentices.
For highlevel clerics, the last campaign almost managed to destroy the druidic order in a large country, by being friendly. A 7th lvl NPC was found dead in his circle, then PC 7th druid and his fiancee a 9th lvl druid NPC were slain in one battle, dying romantically.
The head druid, a 16th lvl brusier went with the party to avenge them, failed a save, turned into an insane pigeon and was stuffed into a bag of holding, which ruptured, destroying him forever. A Player brough in another 10th lvl druid, met with the one remaining druid of the area (a NE vermine druid) and joined the party, I ruled that if he died, the land's druidic order would decay and be gone within a generation, luckily he survived to the end of the campaign. Hopefully to spend several years training up apperentices.
Hello,
1) PrC’s are supposed to bridge the gap between rules and setting. If a player wants to build a character with multiple PrC’s, then he needs to provide an in game reason why his character should be able to pick up a given PrC; claiming it’s the “optimum build” simply isn’t enough.
Note that “in game” doesn’t just mean actions during combat; a player needs to show justification through consistent roleplaying, downtime activities and backstory as well. The more a player invests his character’s time during play in PrC-like activities, the more reason a DM has to award access to that PrC to the player. Attempting to acquire multiple PrC’s requires additional commitment from the player.
2) Generally speaking, it’s a mistake to equate a creature’s great physical and magical power with instant regional dominance/a desire to annihilate everything in sight. Why?
Well, it’s common for supra-powerful beings (whether Elder Evils, Demigods, Epic beings, etc..) to maintain cadre’s of mid and high level recruits, who are trained or otherwise enhanced by their masters to do their bidding and act as the “face” of work done in their master’s name. (IMO this is as true for Chaotic Evil as Lawful Evil creatures/beings.)
Speaking of LE: consider the nature of Lawful Evil creatures and societies: They exist as much to protect (read: Dominate) existing cities and/or regions as they do to invade and control new ones. Thus, LE societies and beings will support and advance powerful, dominant individuals who show they can just as ruthlessly protect their lands and areas of responsibility as they can control them.
What’s more, many powerfully evil (and chaotic) beings/groups realize that the path that brought them to power was not always paved with open confrontation; deceit, planning, betrayal and discipline were and are just as necessary to achieve long lasting power. Because of this you won’t see constant conflict whittling away at the numbers of powerful evil beings. This is not to say they won’t be at each other’s throats (or the throats of goodly beings), but that they’ll take their time about it in order to get it right.
Lastly, I’ve taken pains to leave sub-plot and future plot threads hanging in several of the mid-level adventures I ran for my players, which they are just now picking up on to explore and investigate. These plot threads involve many of the high level and Epic foes I’ve planned for them to face in future adventures.
Similarly, if you as DM take the time to establish the presence (via hits, innuendo and even surprise encounters) of many powerful foes, you’ll reap the reward of a strong sense of game world “realism” in the minds of your players.
J. Grenemyer
1) PrC’s are supposed to bridge the gap between rules and setting. If a player wants to build a character with multiple PrC’s, then he needs to provide an in game reason why his character should be able to pick up a given PrC; claiming it’s the “optimum build” simply isn’t enough.
Note that “in game” doesn’t just mean actions during combat; a player needs to show justification through consistent roleplaying, downtime activities and backstory as well. The more a player invests his character’s time during play in PrC-like activities, the more reason a DM has to award access to that PrC to the player. Attempting to acquire multiple PrC’s requires additional commitment from the player.
2) Generally speaking, it’s a mistake to equate a creature’s great physical and magical power with instant regional dominance/a desire to annihilate everything in sight. Why?
Well, it’s common for supra-powerful beings (whether Elder Evils, Demigods, Epic beings, etc..) to maintain cadre’s of mid and high level recruits, who are trained or otherwise enhanced by their masters to do their bidding and act as the “face” of work done in their master’s name. (IMO this is as true for Chaotic Evil as Lawful Evil creatures/beings.)
Speaking of LE: consider the nature of Lawful Evil creatures and societies: They exist as much to protect (read: Dominate) existing cities and/or regions as they do to invade and control new ones. Thus, LE societies and beings will support and advance powerful, dominant individuals who show they can just as ruthlessly protect their lands and areas of responsibility as they can control them.
What’s more, many powerfully evil (and chaotic) beings/groups realize that the path that brought them to power was not always paved with open confrontation; deceit, planning, betrayal and discipline were and are just as necessary to achieve long lasting power. Because of this you won’t see constant conflict whittling away at the numbers of powerful evil beings. This is not to say they won’t be at each other’s throats (or the throats of goodly beings), but that they’ll take their time about it in order to get it right.
Lastly, I’ve taken pains to leave sub-plot and future plot threads hanging in several of the mid-level adventures I ran for my players, which they are just now picking up on to explore and investigate. These plot threads involve many of the high level and Epic foes I’ve planned for them to face in future adventures.
Similarly, if you as DM take the time to establish the presence (via hits, innuendo and even surprise encounters) of many powerful foes, you’ll reap the reward of a strong sense of game world “realism” in the minds of your players.
J. Grenemyer
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Wow! Great stuff! Been away for the weekend! Thanks for all the input - it's been an insigthful and thoughtful read! Next time my PbP game loses a cleric (through players disappearing) I'll at least have somethings to consider when adding another 11th level cleric PC to the mix! 
Thanks!
Pinotage
Thanks!
Pinotage
Li Shenron
Legend
Pinotage said:
It is a consequence of the attitude of 99% of the gamers (both players and DMs) towards prestige classes. Typically they use only what is printed on books, but since it doesn't perfectly "fit with the character concept"
they take a level here and a level there. Mostly however it's just because it's fun (not for everyone) to build a dread combination of abilities, although most people will afterwards try to come up with a cover concept to justify it.But doing both "perfectly" (the concept and the powerbuild) with existing material, despite the incredibly large amount around, is rarely possible.
The tragedy
is that it would be actually much easier to discuss all together at the game table (or at least the player and the DM) to write down ONE class variant or ONE new prestige class which fits the player's desire and the DM's need to keep troubles few.Pinotage said:
I'm not good at running high-level games... When possible, it's probably fine to move the location somewhere else, or otherwise to make the high-level danger from somewhere else:
- from a distant land
- from the past (the ancient evil awakes...)
- locally, from a fast development (evil apprentice in the meantime has become big evil wizard)
For a while, you can just say the BBEGs has been secretly stirring in the background. The world doesn't have to be full of high-levels characters, maybe it's just full of characters looking forward to become high-level, but not yet so.
When it doesn't seem to work locally anymore, have the party lured to a distant land, where legends speak of more dire perils (and rewards...).
It's a very cheap trick, but I still like the plane shift: characters discover planehopping and start adventuring into other worlds.
But of course, if one imagines the world full of 20lv characters just because the PHB has them, it's hard to explain why aren't they having a major effect on everyday life, and why haven't they basically taken over the world. If I have that feeling about my campaign one day, that it's becoming too full, it'll be time for a hard-reset
sword-dancer
Explorer
Easy answer I don`t play the characters of the other players in a game.Pinotage said:
If I or they found it fits the characters needs, goals etc or make the Character more fun to play, what reason do you need mor?
The Background answer:
The C has the PrC of Kbight of Order xy, Chevalier, Archer of ..., know he is picked for/choses to take to the commanders, bang he neede obviouslythe Prestige Class "Commander",
There is a difference betwenn Kingdom Of Kalamar and Thandor.
In KoK the Setting is more down to earth, in SHARKs Thandor the standard Legionaire has Levels in PC-classes.
The Champions of both sides, even the Lesser are epic Level and then some.
Maybe the Champions of the Villains could take a town in the blink of an eye, but be assured a Team of Shadoravens, Knights of the White Wolves, Champions of the Empire would react hard and fast.
OTOH those Champions of Evil would be wasting their time wasting a few Villages when Valnorrean Legions Led or working together with the Champions of Valnorrea and their gods.
They were their beforeyou come, after you`ve gone.
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