D&D 5E Justin Alexander's review of Shattered Obelisk is pretty scathing

[Micah Sweet]

What’s an example of a product that matches up to what we would want for the non casual DM?

Edit: not a challenge, actually curious on what sort of thing would be useful. I will likely buy it hahahahaha

When I designed the most recent version of my setting, I used Robert Conley's Blackmarsh & Points of Light from Goodman Games, New Big Dragon's d30 Sandbox Companion, and ACKS's Capitol of the Borderlands as primary sources (other than my own imagination of course). All great products for making and enhancing sandbox campaigns.

 

[darjr]

Does that mean we all should be casual DMs to match?

Maybe you should give it a try?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe you should give it a try?

Why? I would actively enjoy the experience less.

 

[MerricB]

I think you could. A big sandbox or dungeon. Make no story but set the scene and what the NPCs want and will do without interference.

I think it's harder to make, harder to run, and probably harder to sell.

I also have a "take", I think most players want a story. Or they want to play that story, which isn't the same as passively watching a TV show or reading a book. Definitely more "railroady" than an open sandbox or variant path dungeon.

One of my pleasures over the last four years is discovering the current state of computer games. And you can learn a lot about potential paths for storytelling in D&D by looking at them.

So, you have very linear storylines like The Last of Us. Most of the side content there is "can I find a collectible". The storyline has no choice points, and the game is in how you overcome challenges. Oh, the number of times Joel or Ellie died when I played!

Incredibly linear, and yet still incredibly popular. Because the writing, story and performances elevate it.

Moving along the scale, we get to experiences like Cyberpunk 2077 and Assassin's Creed: Odyssey. The core of these games are still linear, but there is more of a variation on how they're approached. You can change the order in which you do missions, there's a lot of side content, and your choices can resonate later. Not to an incredible degree, but they do occur. And obviously, Baldur's Gate 3 takes the concept of choice and consequence even further, while still (overall) having a central narrative.

And then you get Skyrim, where I'd say most players completely ignore the central narrative and just go off and do the handcrafted little quests, as it moves about as far towards a sandbox as you can get while still having a sense of storytelling.

One of the interesting things about these latter games is how they handle level gain: and it's through dynamically scaled encounters. (Cyberpunk added that in the 2.0 update). It's one of the ongoing issues for D&D with big sandbox adventures: players very quickly level past content.

Consider Rime of the Frostmaiden, where there are all these low-level missions in the first chapter, but it doesn't take very long before the players have completed a handful, and the rest are no longer useable as written.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[MerricB]

Princes is def one I did not appreciate when it first came out but love more and more as time goes on

Princes is hugely ambitious, and really wants the DM to bring the elemental factions to life. I know that when I ran it, my players had a lot of fun getting enmeshed in the intrigues between the factions - running between the air and earth keeps as each in turn persuaded them that the others were liars and evil.

And then there was the higher-level priest in one of the greater temples who was in a power struggle against his superior. He persuaded the Zhentarim member of the party ("We're the Zhentarim! We're here to help!") that he was also a Zhentarim and needed his help to take the cult down. (Nah, he just wanted to take it over for himself).

Some of this is present in the adventure, and you also have the events that occur during each chapter. But it isn't presented quite as well as I'd like, and requires a lot from the DM.

But it's the adventure I most want to run again because I see the potential for it getting better with enough care.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[darjr]

Why? I would actively enjoy the experience less.

That doesn’t seem possible.

 

[darjr]

@MerricB isn’t one of the big innovations with skyrim and the new Zelda game especially, are the visual and psychological tricks the game played to herd folks into appropriate game play?

Kind of like the illusion of choice by subtly limiting your choices the whole time?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That doesn’t seem possible.

Not sure what you mean. I love DMing. Just started a new campaign last week.

 

[darjr]

Not sure what you mean. I love DMing. Just started a new campaign last week.

It’s just you seem so miserable here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It’s just you seem so miserable here.

WotC's treatment of their settings upsets me, true, and in general I don't like the direction they are trying to take the game. Which would be fine if their influence wasn't so outsized compared to everyone else.