Keen equivalent for bows?

[James McMurray]

Unless prefaced with "I do..." or "I house rule..." or something similar, you can pretty much always bet on Hypersmurf advocating a literal interpretation of the rules.

 

[mvincent]

Unless prefaced with "I do..." or "I house rule..." or something similar, you can pretty much always bet on Hypersmurf advocating a literal interpretation of the rules.

If a literal interpretation is clearly incorrect (i.e. against the intended rules), that would seem to be needlessly argumentative and unfair to those that genuinely want answers I mean... one should at least indicate when doing so. Otherwise you get silly situations like:
1) “A defender wearing spiked gauntlets can't be disarmed.” Taking the Rules As Written literally here would imply that spiked gauntlets prevents someone from disarming any of your weapons.
2) “A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.” RAW implies that a dwarf cannot hide within 60’ of himself
3) “Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor.” RAW implies that a rogue cannot use a ring of evasion while in armor, even though other PC’s can.
4) "Speed while wearing elven chain is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small." RAW implies that elven chain would make Dwarves go faster, but Barbarians, Monks, Flyers, etc. would go slower.
5) "When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). " Taken literally, this could allow someone below 0 hp to have their hp increased when drowning.
6) "Suffocation: A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. " Strictly as written, the suffocation rules would technically apply to non-breathing creatures.
7) "a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding". As written; natural attacks, unarmed strikes, armor spikes and animated shield bashes cannot benefit from haste’s extra attack.
etc.

Hype appears to be saying that casting keen on arrows would have no effect, even though the spell description for keen says it does. Come on.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Additional, the keen edge spell (the basis for the keen ability) definitely indicates that it is cast on arrows (making them magically keen... and it appears to use the dictionary definition of 'keen' in it's description).

I certainly agree that an arrow (or, rather, 50 of them) is a valid target for Keen Edge... but so is a bow, as a slashing or piercing weapon.

It's clear what happens when you cast Keen Edge on a bow: 20/x2 becomes 19-20/x2. It's not as obvious from the rules what happens when you cast it on an arrow, since its listed critical is not x2, it's --. We need to make one of those 'common sense interpretations' to give the application of the spell any meaning.

I've no issue with that common sense interpretation being applied. But I also think there's no rules support for denying a Keen Edge spell to be cast on a bow; nor do I think that - assuming one allows a Melee Weapon Special Ability to be placed on a ranged weapon - the Keen Melee Weapon Special Ability requires a note stating that bows bestow the Keen ability on their ammunition. Just as the Improved Critical (longbow) feat doubles the listed threat range of the longbow, so too would the Keen Melee Weapon Special Ability double the listed threat range of the longbow... it's not necessary to make the arrows Keen as well.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

It's clear what happens when you cast Keen Edge on a bow

No. It is not clear. The spell sharpens weapons, and it does not say that projectile weapons bestow this effect on their ammunition (which is established precedent on other projectile weapon abilities). The matter seems subject to some interpretation.

The description for the Elven Greatbow seem to support my viewpoint:
"Elven Greatbow
In the hands of any nonelf, this bow performs only as a +2 composite longbow. In the hands of an elf, this weapon functions as a +5 composite longbow of unerring accuracy with a Strength bonus that matches its elven wielder’s current Strength at all times. Furthermore, any arrows loosed from the bow are considered keen, regardless of the enhancement bonus of the arrow fired."

i.e. it's the exception that proves the rule. They could've instead just said that the bow was keen. Also, I have seen mention of keen arrows on the WotC site, but none of keen bows.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. It is not clear.

How so?

This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19–20, a threat range of 19–20 becomes 17–20, and a threat range of 18–20 becomes 15–20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons.

The longbow is a piercing weapon. It has a threat range of 20, which becomes 19-20, when the longbow becomes magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

How so?

Haven't I been giving clear statements and examples from the rules (with appropriate links)? The term "magically keen" is used in the spell's definition. Since a word cannot define itself, we would not use a hypothetical D&D definition of keen here (as that would be a circular definition), but would instead use the conventional definition of keen (i.e. sharp). Here's a link to the dictionary definition of keen if that helps any. A sharpened bow (if possible) would not logically have any effect on its arrows unless this was noted (as was the case for the Elven Longbow).

Mind you: I have no vested interest in changing your mind, but when I see a poster making statements that doesn't seem to make sense, I try do what I can to provide information. The previous information I provided seemed fairly solid to me (and I don't feel that you are holding up your end with addressing my points or providing new information), so I have to ask: is there anything I can say or do to make an impact on you? If not, we could certainly shorten the discussion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Haven't I been giving clear statements and examples from the rules (with appropriate links)?

The existence of a bow that makes arrows keen doesn't change what the Keen Edge spell does to a Piercing weapon (of which a bow is one) - increases its threat range.

The existence of examples of Keen arrows on the WotC website - and the absence of examples of Keen bows - doesn't change what the Keen Edge spell does to a Piercing weapon (of which a bow is one) - increases its threat range.

A sharpened bow (if possible) would not logically have any effect on its arrows unless this was noted (as was the case for the Elven Longbow).

It doesn't need to have an effect on the arrows; the threat range that the spell increases is a property of the bow, not a property of the arrows.

Is there anything I can say or do to make an impact on you?

Do you mean to make me feel that the Keen Edge spell can't double the threat range of a piercing or slashing weapon? I suspect not.

-Hyp.