Keen or not to keen and staggered initiative.

[joah_from_Alberta]

I have a couple quickies that maybe someone can help me with--

My players found a keen +1 longbow in the Pathfinder Second Darkness. The srd lists keen as slashing and piercing weapon but the 4th edition printing of core rules says slashing and piercing "melee" weapon. Which is it?

Also, is it possible for a player to stagger their initiative so as to perform their move equivalent and delay then do their standard equivalent. I think I know this one but ...

 

[Nebten]

The rule book trumps SRD every time because its the rule book. If you look at the magic weapon tables, keen can only be placed on melee weapons but not ranged weapons. Looks like something slipped through the cracks when Second Darkness was made.


In answer to staggering their initiative, your players can ready an action .

 

[N'raac]

I'd allow the bow to make its ammunition Keen. It's not exactly the end of the world, regardless of the definitions in the rulebook. Ultimately, the rules exist to form the framework for an enjoyable game, so if allowing the keen longbow isn't causing issues, why not allow it?

If someone can offer a reason this is hugely unbalanced as compared to equivalent enhancements which could be placed on the bow by RAW, that would be a reason to ban this item. Arbitrarily deciding this one enhancement can't possibly be placed on a ranged weapon seems to serve no purpose. If you're really worried about it, consider it created with a special range weapon enchanting spell researched specifically by the weapon's creator.

 

[Systole]

The rule book trumps SRD every time because its the rule book.

And GM trumps rule book because they're the GM.

My theory of GMing is that your first response should always be: "Sure, why not?" Your players are generally happier that way. A keen longbow isn't game-breaking, so there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason to yank it.

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

I'd allow the bow to make its ammunition Keen. It's not exactly the end of the world, regardless of the definitions in the rulebook. Ultimately, the rules exist to form the framework for an enjoyable game, so if allowing the keen longbow isn't causing issues, why not allow it?

If someone can offer a reason this is hugely unbalanced as compared to equivalent enhancements which could be placed on the bow by RAW, that would be a reason to ban this item. Arbitrarily deciding this one enhancement can't possibly be placed on a ranged weapon seems to serve no purpose. If you're really worried about it, consider it created with a special range weapon enchanting spell researched specifically by the weapon's creator.

Yeah thanks guys. I just found it odd that it is listed keen and not keen but then again I have the first printing of the core book (my friend the fourth) and wow, there be a lot of stuff missing in my book.

I think the reason they decided to keen only melee weapons is because of the high crit modifier of missile weapons. I think bow is X3 and revolver is X4. But then again I think scythe is X4. Wouldn't it be cool if a scythe could be made into a missile weapon ... oh yeah, video games heh heh

 

[Salthorae]

If the module gives them a Keen weapon I would leave it as such regardless of the rules changes to the Core book.

The PfSRD also has Keen saying Melee weapon only, but then it is based on the Spell Keen Edge which if you look at that spell you can cast it on a single Slashing or Piercing weapon or 50 projectiles (arrows/bolts/shuriken etc)... weird.

I like the idea of Keen bows personally and would have no problem with them in a game.

 

[N'raac]

I think the reason they decided to keen only melee weapons is because of the high crit modifier of missile weapons. I think bow is X3 and revolver is X4. But then again I think scythe is X4. Wouldn't it be cool if a scythe could be made into a missile weapon ... oh yeah, video games heh heh

Unless I'm misrecalling, crossbows crit on 19-20/x2, as do swords.

Longbows and shortbows crit on 20/x3, just like axes.

It doesn't seem like doubling the crit range on a missile weapon is any more (over)powered than doubling it on a melee weapon.

 

[enrious]

Note that if a character does a Ready Action and it triggers later on in the round, then their initiative changes for the rest of the combat to when the triggered action happens (barring other initiative changes, such as another Ready Action, Delay, or going Unconscious).

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

Note that if a character does a Ready Action and it triggers later on in the round, then their initiative changes for the rest of the combat to when the triggered action happens (barring other initiative changes, such as another Ready Action, Delay, or going Unconscious).

Yeah, this can be rather silly if everyone triggers their action to the highest initiative, then you have everyone, including the monsters going at the top of the order.

Although I was thinking of a nice tactical encounter where two henchmen and a boss who are at some distance from the party, move forward and wait to trigger to move back when a character approaches-- effectively making the character choose to follow with another move action. I know my players aren't expecting it so this should be a technical challenge (and might go on for very long depending how quickly they catch on).

I like to delay my players if they take too long deciding, this way it keeps the flow of combat. As this is a default state rather than delay, they shouldn't lose their initiative order.

Cheers,

 

[enrious]

Except that even in your first example, there'd be an initiative heirarchy and in the second, not sure what'd be gained by moving forward and then moving back apart from burning calories - when you can have a readied action to trigger a "free" ranged attack. Beyond that, Charge sorta makes it superfluous, I would think.

Not sure what you mean by "this is a default state rather than delay" in reference to a delay, but if you meant to suggest that you're not dropping the initiative of players who take too long to decide what they are doing, and thus "move" down the initiative order, then I'd say it's a DM's call - but not something I'd do, given the number of things in Pathfinder that are triggered after full rounds. Of course, I don't think doing so is a huge issue in the grand scheme of things either.