D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

[Remathilis]

I'm not sure some of your examples mean what you say they do... the only actual 'non-combatant' classes & builds involve playing pacifists (like your cleric, but even then, BoED provides options for that sort of thing) or some NPCs classes. In what way is a rapier-wielding fighter, a diviner, a rogue with diplomacy maxed out, or a bard (they're all foofy) not combatants?

Henry kinda nailed it. I was trying (poorly) to describe characters who excel in a certain non-combat role and can't (or won't) hold his own in combat. I think your comment actually proved my point; its kinda hard to suck at combat in 3e without actually TRYING to (such as the aforementioned rapier-fighter).

 

[Remathilis]

Actually, in the game I'm in, my half-ogre paladin with 1 sp/level is often 'dragging the group down', as he's useless outside a fight (except for comic relief). I don't think I'd like to play in, or run, a game where the characters you describe are useless or seen as 'dead weight'. I think most games I'm in or run are 50% combat, at best, so I expect party resources -- either by character or overall -- to be divided the same way.

(And I'd say a diplomat who can let the party overcome the challenge without actually draining their resources in melee is being very, very, useful...)

I DID say "(It should be noted that the character that is all combat and nothing outside of combat is equally bad: see fighter 3.5) "

The knife cuts both ways, overspecializing in a combat role and overspecializing in a non-combat role hurts the other side equally. If your rogue insists on rolling diplomacy against every foe or your fighter insists on rolling initiative against every foe, your pretty much stuck in the same mentality, just the opposite side of it.

However, if a character can be good at something in combat (sneak attack) and not in combat (scouting, diplomacy, traps, etc) then you have win-win. Your not sitting there hiding from combat (or shooting your crossbow and hoping for "20") and your not bored to tears in tense negotiations and wanting to pick a fight. Fourth edition seems to be aiming for this mentality, and I hope to Baator it works.

 

[MaelStorm]

Thank you so much Keith for responding in this thread. Almost everything you said makes me happy. I'm looking forward for Eberron in 2009.

The only thing I'm a little bit unhappy with the Core Books is that the "Anti-Epic Handbook" (as you named it) is not included in the core rules, hope WotC will come up with it eventually.

 

[Hellcow]

The only thing I'm a little bit unhappy with the Core Books is that the "Anti-Epic Handbook" (as you named it) is not included in the core rules, hope WotC will come up with it eventually.

Well, bear in mind I haven't seen all the rules. So there could be lots of things that either I haven't seen, or that have changed since I've seen them. Not saying there are, of course - simply that I'm not an official or fully reliable source here.

 

[Hussar]

Thank you so much Keith for responding in this thread. Almost everything you said makes me happy. I'm looking forward for Eberron in 2009.

The only thing I'm a little bit unhappy with the Core Books is that the "Anti-Epic Handbook" (as you named it) is not included in the core rules, hope WotC will come up with it eventually.

I can see your point, but, look at it another way: Here's a perfect opportunity for the 3rd party publishers to get into a niche.

Given the number of publishers that will likely be doing 4e eventually, finding niche products likely won't be a problem.

 

[MaelStorm]

I can see your point, but, look at it another way: Here's a perfect opportunity for the 3rd party publishers to get into a niche.

Given the number of publishers that will likely be doing 4e eventually, finding niche products likely won't be a problem.

Yes, but when will 3rd party start publishing for D&D 4E? And when will one 3rd party publisher will eventually release it? IMO it is an essential tool that the DM need to have at the beginning for shaping a campaign.

As Keith responded, he doesn't know yet, and I'm crossing my finger that this type of information will be included in the Core Books next June.

 

[Ximenes088]

Yes, but when will 3rd party start publishing for D&D 4E? And when will one 3rd party publisher will eventually release it? IMO it is an essential tool that the DM need to have at the beginning for shaping a campaign.

As Keith responded, he doesn't know yet, and I'm crossing my finger that this type of information will be included in the Core Books next June.

It might be, but I don't really think this sort of information needs to be in the core rulebooks at release. Any DM experienced enough to _want_ an old-school fragile PC experience is experienced enough to house rule it. Such as:

PCs start with one-third HP, one-third healing surges, one-third skills, only racial feats, and an at-will class power they can use once per encounter, and an encounter power they can use once per day. Once they earn half the XP needed to make 2nd level, they get a feat, another third of their stats, plus the per-encounter becomes at-will and the per-day becomes per encounter. Once they earn enough XP for 2nd level, they get all the powers of a first level PC and continue advancing as normal, just one level behind the XP chart.

Poof. I've just created all the Anti-Epic Handbook I'll ever need.

 

[MaelStorm]

It might be, but I don't really think this sort of information needs to be in the core rulebooks at release. Any DM experienced enough to _want_ an old-school fragile PC experience is experienced enough to house rule it. Such as:

PCs start with one-third HP, one-third healing surges, one-third skills, only racial feats, and an at-will class power they can use once per encounter, and an encounter power they can use once per day. Once they earn half the XP needed to make 2nd level, they get a feat, another third of their stats, plus the per-encounter becomes at-will and the per-day becomes per encounter. Once they earn enough XP for 2nd level, they get all the powers of a first level PC and continue advancing as normal, just one level behind the XP chart.

Poof. I've just created all the Anti-Epic Handbook I'll ever need.

I mostly want it for non-combat skills, like craft skill, music skills, art skills, etc., for PCs. Now that the skills are merged together it's becoming increasingly difficult to define this information, do I create separate skills for each skills or do I need to create new general skills? As Keith said, 4E is focused toward PCs becoming legend, and this type of information seem to be completely relegated to past editions. I could easily create a parallel system for this, but my satisfaction level for always defining missing stuff, like extra skills, races, classes, animal companions, etc, is dwindling in the abyss. I don't find the Core Books are a good bang for the bucks.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

first of all a big "thank you" for your time

The wizard is a expert in Arcana. Not only is he substantially better at the skill than any of his comrades, he can perform trained actions with this skill that none of the others can. If he wants to be a true MASTER of Arcana, he'll eventually want to put a feat into Skill Focus, and this admittedly would be a minor drop in combat efficiency. But by and large he doesn't have to make a sacrifice to shine out of combat.

and thanks for this tinybit of info that confirms the working of skill

very interesting thread thanks again

looking forward to 4e

 

[Keefe the Thief]

And Hellcow does it again! Selling me on Eberron was not enough, no. Now he´s selling me on 4e. Ahh, enthusiasm, you are a sweet balm for my soul in this sea of negativity. (Not ENworld. I prowl the WotC Forums sometimes).