D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

[Hellcow]

Sure, Spatula, but flip it around. What do you expect me to do?

• I've played with a non-combat system - rituals - that I really like.
• I'm legally bound not to reveal any information until it's actually released by WotC.
• I then see someone say "4E magic sucks. It's all just damage."

I know that statement is incorrect. I can't legally spell out how the system works. So do I say nothing - in which case people may assume that the person saying it's all about damage has access to information they don't, and is speaking the truth? Or do I at least point out that there's more you haven't seen?

I understand your frustration with the fact that so many systems are as yet unrevealed. I understand why, based on the information you have received, you may come to a particular conclusion. I CAN'T provide the information that will illuminate everything. It's not my call to make. All I can do is try to clarify when I see people jumping to what I believe are inaccurate conclusions.

So put yourself in my position. You've played an unreleased system you really like. Or for that matter, seen a preview of a movie you really love, or read an advance copy of a novel. The company's released a few trailers or a chapter of the novel, and people are jumping to lots of conclusions about it. You're not allowed to share the full insight you have. People start trashing the movie based on the trailers, and you think it's great. Do you say nothing? Or do you say "Well, the preview only showed the action scenes - there's a lot more to it than that?" Especially if you think that someone who's seen a trailer and been turned off might actually like the movie, if they knew about the scenes that haven't been shown?

I'm NOT challenging people's right to criticize what they see, to have doubts, or to jump to conclusions based on the limited information they have. That's both human nature and all that people CAN do right now. And I'm not saying that when you finally see it, all those doubts will be wiped away, and you will shed tears of joy at this wonder of gaming. But I will continue to say that you DON'T have all the information, to try to point out specific areas where I feel that there's more to be seen, and to say that as someone who IS engaged in an ongoing campaign, I'm having a great deal of fun with it - far more than I did with 3E. I'm the guy who's seen the movie instead of the trailer. I can't put it up on youtube or leak the script without getting into a hell of a lot of trouble. But I can say that I think it's a great movie, and that I can't wait for it to actually come out so that I CAN talk about it openly.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sure, Spatula, but flip it around. What do you expect me to do?

• I've played with a non-combat system - rituals - that I really like.
• I'm legally bound not to reveal any information until it's actually released by WotC.
• I then see someone say "4E magic sucks. It's all just damage."

I know that statement is incorrect. I can't legally spell out how the system works. So do I say nothing - in which case people may assume that the person saying it's all about damage has access to information they don't, and is speaking the truth? Or do I at least point out that there's more you haven't seen?

I understand your frustration with the fact that so many systems are as yet unrevealed. I understand why, based on the information you have received, you may come to a particular conclusion. I CAN'T provide the information that will illuminate everything. It's not my call to make. All I can do is try to clarify when I see people jumping to what I believe are inaccurate conclusions.

So put yourself in my position. You've played an unreleased system you really like. Or for that matter, seen a preview of a movie you really love, or read an advance copy of a novel. The company's released a few trailers or a chapter of the novel, and people are jumping to lots of conclusions about it. You're not allowed to share the full insight you have. People start trashing the movie based on the trailers, and you think it's great. Do you say nothing? Or do you say "Well, the preview only showed the action scenes - there's a lot more to it than that?" Especially if you think that someone who's seen a trailer and been turned off might actually like the movie, if they knew about the scenes that haven't been shown?

I'm NOT challenging people's right to criticize what they see, to have doubts, or to jump to conclusions based on the limited information they have. That's both human nature and all that people CAN do right now. And I'm not saying that when you finally see it, all those doubts will be wiped away, and you will shed tears of joy at this wonder of gaming. But I will continue to say that you DON'T have all the information, to try to point out specific areas where I feel that there's more to be seen, and to say that as someone who IS engaged in an ongoing campaign, I'm having a great deal of fun with it - far more than I did with 3E. I'm the guy who's seen the movie instead of the trailer. I can't put it up on youtube or leak the script without getting into a hell of a lot of trouble. But I can say that I think it's a great movie, and that I can't wait for it to actually come out so that I CAN talk about it openly.

I think Spatulas comment is really directed more at WotC and not to you. You can't say more than you did. We all know that. But we would all love for WotC to tell us more.

But maybe they really shouldn't. I mean, there is a lot of fun in picking up a rulebook and finding out sweet stuff you never knew! People that are off-put now because they have only seen the bits they are not interested in or that lead them to the wrong conclusions can still be "corrected" by all the reports and reviews on the web when the game is published, so even if it feels "wrong" to us now, it might not be that bad.

 

[zoroaster100]

Thanks, Hellcow, for sharing your thoughts and what information you were able to share on this thread. It was great reading and very interesting. While my curiosity has only increased with respect to rituals and the noncombat system, I am glad when I hear from folks (especially game designers) who have tried the full game and have found it a lot of fun. I have tried running a combat heavy game for my players with the first level D&D Experience characters and we found it a lot of fun already. I can't wait to be able to run other types of games for the players (higher level, more noncombat options, etc.) when I have the full rules in hand. Already I can tell you that as a DM I find the new monster stats to be SOOO much more fun to use than 3.5 monster stats. And that is coming from a DM who generall really liked 3.5, at least until things start breaking down (from my personal perspective of fun as a DM) at the mid- to high levels.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

To chime in I'm fairly sure he was directing his last comment at WoTC, and specifically they're marketing practices, not yourself. No one here is aggravated at you for not revealing what you're obligated not to. It's WoTC that's drawing fire here.

 

[Hellcow]

To chime in I'm fairly sure he was directing his last comment at WoTC, and specifically they're marketing practices, not yourself.

Fair enough, and I certainly understand the frustration. I'm going to return to lurk mode now, as I'm going to be traveling for the next few days. Hopefully more information WILL be forthcoming, because I'd love to be able to discuss multiclassing, rituals, and all the rest in an open environment!

 

[Piratecat]

Fair enough, and I certainly understand the frustration. I'm going to return to lurk mode now, as I'm going to be traveling for the next few days. Hopefully more information WILL be forthcoming, because I'd love to be able to discuss multiclassing, rituals, and all the rest in an open environment!

I'm glad you're commenting to the extent you can.

Incidentally, Keith, my coworkers Mr. Russet & Mr. Zirpoli presumably say hi.

 

[Spatula]

Sure, Spatula, but flip it around. What do you expect me to do?

Keep producing quality game material. Especially Eberron stuff! I love Eberron. (in fact, Eberron is perhaps a factor in my disinterest in switching editions until all the pieces are in place to run it properly)

Mustrum_Ridcully and HSB are right in that I'm not criticizing you, nor your posts here.

 

[Hellcow]

Incidentally, Keith, my coworkers Mr. Russet & Mr. Zirpoli presumably say hi.

Respond in kind, would you? I've been meaning to get in touch with Dan for a geological age. Better yet, just tell Dan that you believe in Slimo.

 

[Piratecat]

Respond in kind, would you? I've been meaning to get in touch with Dan for a geological age. Better yet, just tell Dan that you believe in Slimo.

It's now the first thing on my Monday agenda. My God, I'm suggestible.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

So put yourself in my position. You've played an unreleased system you really like. Or for that matter, seen a preview of a movie you really love, or read an advance copy of a novel. The company's released a few trailers or a chapter of the novel, and people are jumping to lots of conclusions about it. You're not allowed to share the full insight you have. People start trashing the movie based on the trailers, and you think it's great. Do you say nothing? Or do you say "Well, the preview only showed the action scenes - there's a lot more to it than that?" Especially if you think that someone who's seen a trailer and been turned off might actually like the movie, if they knew about the scenes that haven't been shown?

I understand your frustration, Keith. I feel it to. On the bright side, only a couple of more months to go. Then I can finally stop reading threads hovering my mouse over the reply button and then clicking on a different thread instead.