D&D 4E Keith Baker on 4E! (The Hellcow responds!)

Steely Dan said:
Exactly, guys like Amadeus, Jimi Hendrix and Allan Holdsworth would have an obscene Perform (instrument) check (mass Ranks), but wouldn't have more than a few hp.
Here ya go, dude:

Master Guitar Player: Human Expert 3, HD 3d6-3, hp 6; Crucial Skill: Perform (stringed instruments) +16 (6 ranks, +5 Ch, +5 Prodigy); Crucial Feat: Skill Focus (Perform); Special Qualities: Prodigy (Charisma: +2 Ch, +4 on Cha-based checks) (DMG II). S 8 D 10 Co 9 I 10 W 13 Ch 20
Note: By Taking 10, the Master Guitar Player can make memorable performances (DC 25, as per the PHB) without even trying. In time, he develops a national reputation. When he does put in an effort (or has a masterwork guitar and is in favorable conditions), he attracts extraplanar attention (DC 30).
 

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I would replace a level of expert with one of marshall, personally. But then, I was very favorably impressed by the way some Eberron NPCs have a combination of NPC and PC levels. It would let him hit a DC 30 while taking ten, (and at that point, you're talking about one of the best two or three performers anywhere in the whole setting, so I don't mind a bit of specialness) as well making anyone he performs with sound better. Also, you forgot the con penalty from rampant drug and alcohal abuse. But then, I suppose it depends on who, exactly you're modeling, and how close to the real world you want to get. :cool:
 

Of course, in 3e, if the lamplighter were able to put in a full day's work... he's out of a job the next day (since continual light lasts forever). :)
 

Hey all.

I just wanted to highlight one thing. I've seen a number of posts (here and elsewhere) which say that I'm calling something out as an amazing innovation - "SHOCKING! You can place limits on raise dead! I could NEVER do that before!" Obviously you could do it before, and the proof is that I (and many others who have posted on the subject) did.

None of my recent posts have been intended to be revelations about 4E. The raise dead quote was just pulled from the section about the role of PCs; I wasn't posting about the wonder of 4E raise dead. The same thing is true with NPCs. If I was running a game at home and didn't feel like writing up full stats for a 3E NPC, did I have to do it? No. But on the other hand, if I was writing stats for a WotC or Paizo module, then yes, I DID have to do it - or at the least, I had to ensure that what I have suggested is possible within the rules. As has been said, a fundamental premise of 3E is that PCs and NPCs follow the same rules - and in 4E, that's not as strictly true (though again, before people take this and blow it out of proportion, I'll remind everyone that I AM NOT A 4E DESIGNER and have not even seen the final to-print rules!). THAT'S what my post was about - that in spite of the fact that Eberron was designed for 3E, some of its underlying premises - in this case, the fact that the PCs are remarkable individuals who do stand out from the commonfolk - are a good match for 4E.

Now, going back to the example of the healer. I pulled +12 out of the air. But let's run with it. I'm writing an Eberron adventure, and I want to put the healer in. NOT doing this at home, in which case I'd certainly just make him a dude with 6 hp and a +12 check - writing an adventure for publication. The editors expect me to follow the rules and to produce a character that any other DM could legally create; among other things, this rules out houserule feats, because other DMs won't have them. Obviously, the 4 ranks is an easy base, and I'll admit I didn't think about the Healer's Kit, so that gives us +6. Skill Focus brings us to +9. However, Wisdom 16 isn't a trivial thing in Eberron, in which people are assumed to use the standard or elite array. So at a minimum he'll end up as 2nd level with a 15 wisdom, if he's elite (raising the question of it the village healer really should be elite, but there you go). Now, I could argue for point buy... and then I could pull it off at first level. But there's a more serious problem... What class is he? Because Heal isn't a class skill for commoners. So now he's presumably an expert... or a 4-5th-level commoner taking cross-class skill ranks.

So fine, he's an expert. But now, as a 2nd level expert, he's got 25 MORE skill points I haven't addressed. What are his other skills?

Did you, as the DM at home, ever have to worry about this? Of course not. You just said "The only thing they are going to do with him is to have him heal. He's a healer. He's got a +12 Heal check. Done." But *I* had to think about it, because that fundamental premise of the system is that all the rules always apply to all characters. That's why we HAVE NPC classes and demographics charts showing the number and level of people with those classes in the DMG, so in theory you can use that to determine if there's a blacksmith in the village capable of hitting the Craft number the players require. It's an underlying assumption of the system.

The shift in 4E isn't objectively better for all sentient beings (well, aside from RPG editors). Some people feel very strongly about the fact that all rules should apply equally to all characters, PC and NPC, and 3E supports that. It's not some miracle - "Why hasn't anyone ever done this before?" But in my opinion, it IS better for Eberron - and that's what all of my recent LJ posts have been about.

Most of all, I will emphasize again: I'm not a 4E designer. I've only been playing for a few months, and I haven't even seen the final version of all of the rules. So what I'm posting is my OPINION - but it shouldn't be taken as gospel about the game, or as holding the same weight as James Wyatt, Rob Heinsoo, or anyone else who's actually worked on the system.
 

Klaus said:
Here ya go, dude:

Master Guitar Player: Human Expert 3, HD 3d6-3, hp 6; Crucial Skill: Perform (stringed instruments) +16 (6 ranks, +5 Ch, +5 Prodigy); Crucial Feat: Skill Focus (Perform); Special Qualities: Prodigy (Charisma: +2 Ch, +4 on Cha-based checks) (DMG II). S 8 D 10 Co 9 I 10 W 13 Ch 20
Note: By Taking 10, the Master Guitar Player can make memorable performances (DC 25, as per the PHB) without even trying. In time, he develops a national reputation. When he does put in an effort (or has a masterwork guitar and is in favorable conditions), he attracts extraplanar attention (DC 30).
But Klaus, you didn't make Hendrix or Amadeus.

Right there, you've made Johnny (from Devil Went Down to Georgia).

So is a golden fiddle considered masterwork?

--G
 

Klaus said:
Here ya go, dude:

Master Guitar Player: Human Expert 3, HD 3d6-3, hp 6; Crucial Skill: Perform (stringed instruments) +16 (6 ranks, +5 Ch, +5 Prodigy); Crucial Feat: Skill Focus (Perform); Special Qualities: Prodigy (Charisma: +2 Ch, +4 on Cha-based checks) (DMG II). S 8 D 10 Co 9 I 10 W 13 Ch 20
Note: By Taking 10, the Master Guitar Player can make memorable performances (DC 25, as per the PHB) without even trying. In time, he develops a national reputation. When he does put in an effort (or has a masterwork guitar and is in favorable conditions), he attracts extraplanar attention (DC 30).

here the question is: what is prodigy? How many books do i have to browse through just to make a nsc bard? Or making a high level wizard... browsing through 10000 spells, just to let him be killed in 1 round if you were unlucky. Honestly, this kind of work should only be done for the "end boss" or certain special encounters...

conversions from 2nd edition will be so much easier...
 

amethal said:
WotC proved (at least to my satisfaction) that 3rd edition isn't all about spending precious time getting your stat blocks right.

For example, read John Cooper's review of Monster Manual 3.

What's that supposed to mean?

If it means what it think it means, I agree.

If it doesn't, I might not. :cool:
 

Another thing I'll point out about the principle of all rules applying to all people is that once you give the first-level commoner access to all feats, skills, combos etc that PCs have, you can then run into the logical question of how you ever get a 1st-level blacksmith who DOESN'T have a minimum +8 to his check. He's human, he's got the skill points, he's got two feats - if he's not putting at least one of them into Skill Focus, what's he putting it into instead? What about that other feat?

The master guitar player is actually a good example of this. He's a human expert 3. That means that he's got 30 skill points you haven't accounted for, Klaus. Let's say one of them is Bluff - now he's got a +15 Bluff skill. Add on Diplomacy and he'll have a +17 there... +19 if you pick Sense Motive as skill #4. Again, you can CHOOSE as a DM to just ignore this - but the fact of the matter is that by the rules, he's got 30 skill points and feats beyond Skill Focus. As a professional designer, I've always been expected to fill out those slots - even when it was irrelevant to the story, and certainly when I don't actually WANT the character to be especially good at anything but that spotlight skill.

Personally, I have played the other side of this argument quite often, showing the diverse potential of the 1st level expert and putting together combinations of skills. You can do a surprising amount with that first level expert. And you can make some very interesting and logical characters. Let's take our healer. She's sensitive to other people's pain and has a good bedside manner, so how about Diplomacy and Sense Motive. We'll give her "Profession: Chirugeon" to cover the general lore and techniques of a professional healer. Throw in Craft: Alchemy because she works with various medicines. And then, because she has a bad habit of pinching stuff from her patients, we'll give her Sleight of Hand. If she's human, we'll use the bonus points on Bluff, to help her say "This won't hurt a bit." But I can still make that same exact character today: it's just that if I instead simply say "Eh, this one just has a Heal +5" I haven't failed or left anything out... this one just has a Heal +5.

Essentially, if you do strictly follow the rules - which you can always CHOOSE not to, but if you do - it's hard to say "I just want to make the blacksmith's apprentice, who isn't better than the blacksmith at ANYTHING, and who only has two ranks of Craft because he's still learning." With a masterwork tool and +1 Int or Wis bonus - assuming no special skills beyond Skill Focus - any commoner is going to have a +10 on their chosen Profession or Craft. I want the crappy guy, and I don't want him to have put those skills elsewhere, or used that feat on Toughness instead of Skill Focus - I just want him to be even crappier than that first level guy who's come up with a +10. He's a +2 check Blacksmith, plain and simple, barely skilled enough to work the forge. Again, COULD I do this in 3E? Sure, by just ignoring the rules and NOT addressing the skill points he should have as a 1st level human commoner. This simply means that's I'm NOT ignoring it - I'm setting his skill where I want it to be.

Beyond that, once you divorce NPCs from class levels, you also avoid the question of "This NPC watchman spent 10 years fighting in the Last War. Why is he only 2nd level?" and conversely "This PC has only been adventuring for a week. Why is he already 3rd level?"

Again, I know lots of DMs who HATE the idea of NPCs following different rules than PCs. I'm not saying "It's a revelation! All people will love it!" But I am saying that I like it - and that it works well with the underlying principles of Eberron.
 
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The incompetent blacksmiths and and healers are LVL 1 commoners with average scores and skill focus for a total of +5 ;)
thats enough to do basic tasks (take 10 = 15) but is not good at all...
then his last 4 skillpoints go for profession healer, since after all he has learned it, and the bonus feat goes to ... i don´t know, but i just spent 5 mins to think about it...
... and thats the problem... i had to think about that character at all... ;)
 

UngeheuerLich said:
The incompetent blacksmiths and and healers are LVL 1 commoners with average scores and skill focus for a total of +5
Average ability scores and Skill Focus is going to get you +7 for Profession or Craft; both are class skills for commoners. For the healer, certainly, and in fact this is essentially the route I took with Maza Thadian, the 18th level commoner in Sharn. She's probably the greatest chef in Khorvaire. With all her skill points, she could also be the greatest blacksmith and the greatest animal handler. Instead, she's on the City Council and has put most of her skill points into cross-class skills needed for that role - making her an excellent diplomat, but not substantially better than the 7th-9th level experts she works with, who get Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive as class skills (and who are themselves pretty bad@$$ at 7th-9th level). But NOBODY comes close to her in the kitchen.

There's lots of ways around this. Again, I'm not saying it's a fatal flaw of 3E; I've been playing with it in 3E for years, pushing for more NPCs with NPC classes and creating people like Maza Thadian. My point is simply that the 4E approach is in my mind even BETTER for Eberron than NPC classes are. The NPC has the skills he needs to have, and that's it - there's no question of where those unused skill points or feats got to.
 
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