Keith Baker on Eberron's Theme

[Hellcow]

A sense of urban grittiness and corruption that permeates the "scenery"...there's more but I'll stop here.

And in Eberron, you have two friends on this front: the Last War and the Dragonmarked Houses.

As I play it, the Last War hangs over EVERYTHING in Khorvaire. The war only ended two years ago, and no one believes it's over for good. Scars of the war can be seen across the countryside. The people of that village you pass through may hate you for your nationality, because of what the Aundairians did in the war. For this reason in particular, I always encourage characters to explain what they did in the war (again, still going on just two years ago), or if they weren't involved why they weren't involved. Here's where you can get your flawed and ambiguously moral heroes. Did they do anything they now regret? Did they lose their faith in their religion or their nation? Did they lose their entire nation, if they were Cyrans? If you participated in a massacre while fighting for Cyre, can you BLAME the Brelish villagers for hating you in the present day? The scars of the war never go away. You may have been fighting for a cause you believed was right, but so were the people you killed. And their children may be hunting you down today, or their queen may be preparing to start the war again.

Beyond this, we have the Mourning, the unexplained mystery that still threatens the world. As no one knows what caused it, no one knows if it will happen again. The world as you know it could end tomorrow in a cloud of dead-gray mist. How does that affect you? What does it do to the morality and aspirations of the common man?

Then we have the Dragonmarked Houses - the chance to bring urban grittiness and greed even into the wilds. You could be in the Talenta Plains, but you're still dealing with House Orien's hunger to expand the rails and claim this untapped land. Or perhaps it's House Tharashk, seeking to eliminate a native tribe to lay claim to the rich dragonshard deposits their finders have located. Or House Cannith, seeking to reclaim an aerial weapon lost from the war - something kept hidden even from the kings and queens of the Five Nations, something they were saving to serve their own interests. The houses aren't about good or evil: they are about profit and power, and they can seek that anywhere.

I agree that few sourcebooks have addressed this - though in regards to the scars of war, I would add The Forge of War to your list. But to me, the foundation for noir is there in the deep wounds left by the war, the overaching sense of doom created by the Mourning, the slow but continuing collapse of the feudal system and the grasping ambition of the Dragonmarked Houses. I think the dominant feeling at WotC may be that more DMs prefer the pure pulp, because it IS something D&D does very well; but the anchor points for noir are certainly there in the world.

 

[Odhanan]

I'd certainly agree that the adventurers printed by WotC have been almost exclusively pulp. The Paizo adventures often go the other way. Nic Logue is interested in the darker aspects of the setting, and much of his work reflects this. For my part, "Steel Shadows" certainly plays to the noir side, while "Fallen Angel" is dark urban action, but still about action more than intrigue or mystery.

So yes, the SUPPORT for the world has been weighted more towards pulp adventure than noir. But *I* still see the noir, and still look forward to exploring it further when the opportunity presents itself.

I agree, Keith. By the way, I never had the occasion to tell you: good job on Eberron, man. I mean it.

With the partnership of Paizo and WotC coming to a close, I think it'd serve the setting to have WotC adventures that reconnect with the Noir aspect many fans want to experience more. I know I'd love to see this happen.

 

[blargney the second]

No wonder bits of Shadows of the Last War didn't make a heck of a lot of sense: the kobolds, land cart, and schema copy all stuck out as weird unexplainable elements.

 

[Mokona]

I think Wizards of the Coast pumps up the pulp because it's more accessible to younger players. Bill Slavicsek added the dinosaur element to Eberron because tons and tons of other submissions (out of 10,000+) in the contest included dinosaurs. If so many people submitted ideas with dinosaurs then dinosaurs must be popular . . . right?

 

[blargney the second]

Dinosaurs are teh awesome. You're absolutely correct.

 

[Hellcow]

Bill Slavicsek added the dinosaur element to Eberron because tons and tons of other submissions (out of 10,000+) in the contest included dinosaurs.

Bill did it? Now I've heard three explanations. MY recollection was that James proposed the idea of the halflings riding dinosaurs instead of more mundane mounts, because his kid happened to be in a dinosaur phase and the decision was that the nomadic halflings needed more exotic mounts. I always wanted dinosaurs SOMEWHERE in the setting (Dinosaurs/Lost World certainly being a pulpy thing, and dinosaurs being IN the Monster Manual and all), so I thought it was a fine thing.

I'll also point out that I heard that tons and tons of submissions in the search were "Waterworld" settings, but the aquatic aspects of Eberron were actually toned down, not expanded. (Of course, I'm not a WotC employee and I didn't see any of these settings, so I could be quite wrong about this.)

 

[Jhaelen]

No wonder bits of Shadows of the Last War didn't make a heck of a lot of sense: the kobolds, land cart, and schema copy all stuck out as weird unexplainable elements.

I have to agree, here. The original version makes a lot more sense.

I'd actually bought the adventures to run them in our Earthdawn campaign and I was pretty disappointed because after making the changes I deemed necessary, there really wasn't much left of the original.

I was definitely hoping for a story with more depth.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Then we have the Dragonmarked Houses - the chance to bring urban grittiness and greed even into the wilds. <snip>The houses aren't about good or evil: they are about profit and power, and they can seek that anywhere.

This certainly could have been presented more in the materials. As is, the Houses seem a bit bland. I like them, but they really require fleshing out.

I agree that few sourcebooks have addressed this - though in regards to the scars of war, I would add The Forge of War to your list.

I liked the "encyclopedia" portion of Forge well enough, but the actual history section read very blandly and didn't strike me as "real" enough (as ECS seemed a bit better in that regard). Overall the history didn't feel like Eberron to me, but rather a caricature of Eberron. The key points of history (Warforged, Karnn Undead, etc) are glossed over.

I think the dominant feeling at WotC may be that more DMs prefer the pure pulp, because it IS something D&D does very well; but the anchor points for noir are certainly there in the world.

Definetly, Eberron has potential for nearly every type of game, but Pulp certainly is easiest to see.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I'll also point out that I heard that tons and tons of submissions in the search were "Waterworld" settings, but the aquatic aspects of Eberron were actually toned down, not expanded.

I have to ask, Keith: as far as you can tell, is there a chance that Wizards of the Coast will eventually make use of those aquatic nations you came up with, or should we assume that in "canon" the seas of Eberron aren't inhabited as you envisioned?

Like, when they cut those aquatic aspects out, was it more of a "We need to simplify things for the core book and underwater civilisations are an easy thing to remove" sort of deal, or was it more like "Eh, not really feeling this underwater nations thing, let's forget about it"?

 

[Hellcow]

I have to ask, Keith: as far as you can tell, is there a chance that Wizards of the Coast will eventually make use of those aquatic nations you came up with, or should we assume that in "canon" the seas of Eberron aren't inhabited as you envisioned?

I believe there's lots of room to expand on the culture of, for example, the sahuagin in Eberron. I've already touched on this in Secrets of Xen'drik and The Shattered Land. However, without going into details (given that WotC does own the original proposal, I think my NDA still applies), there's no way that the cultures I originally described could fit in canon Eberron today.

Like, when they cut those aquatic aspects out, was it more of a "We need to simplify things for the core book and underwater civilisations are an easy thing to remove" sort of deal, or was it more like "Eh, not really feeling this underwater nations thing, let's forget about it"?

Certainly the former, and I understand that decision. Beyond that, I think a major factor is the fact that underwater adventuring is difficult on many levels. PC simply aren't going to spend much time underwater. We didn't devote much space to the planes either, for the same reason. There's so many possible things to cover that sacrifices are necessary, and I think Bill believed that there were more would-be planehoppers in the world than players dying to explore the ocean floor.

The key to me is that I'd like to explore the relationship between surface and sea - not even worry so much about going underwater, but addressing the fact that the oceans are territories inhabited by creatures just as intelligent (or more intelligent) than humans, who may not take kindly to people crossing their borders. Treaties, wars, etc - if it can happen on the land, it could happen on the water, especially if the creatures in question are at least partially amphibious.

I'd like to do more with the seas of Eberron. But I'd like to do more with the planes of Eberron or with all of the other nations of Khorvaire. I'd love to do a sourcebook on intrigue and noir, or focusing on the villains and conspiracies of the world. I'd like to do a sourcebook about running campaigns set in different points of Eberron's history. And I think, with the current state of the world, any of these would be more useful to the average player than the underwater sourcebook. So the undersea set-up remains something I'm say to see set adrift - but that doesn't make it the wrong decision.