D&D 4E Keith Baker on using 4E disease rules to simulate injuries

[jelmore]

http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/11215.html?thread=187087#t187087

The example given is off-the-cuff and the numbers may be off, but Keith talks about using the disease rules to simulate the effects of a broken arm, for some NPCs in an adventure.

-----
Broken Arm
Level 12 disease
Special: Cannot be cured by the Cure Disease ritual
Endurance improve DC 28, Maintain DC 18
1. The victim is cured.
2. Initial Effect The target can make no use of the injured arm. This will prevent the use of a two-handed weapon or both weapon and shield. The character suffers a -1 penalty on Acrobatics, Athletics, and Thievery checks.
3. The infected break becomes painful. Increase the skill penalty to -2. The victim cannot use the arm.
4. Gangrene begins to set in. The victim cannot use the arm; increase the skill penalty to -4. The victim loses one healing surge that cannot be regained until he is cured; each subsequent failure causes an additional loss. If the victim begins the day with no healing surges, he dies.

 

[CodexofRome]

What an excellent idea, and it opens the door to a lot of possibilities. Using the disease system to introduce injuries will take away one of my concerns about 4e... that its too easy to recover from combat.

Off of the top of my head, I can see coming up with something for characters who are bloodied, and something even bigger for characters who are knocked to 0 hp or below but revived.

 

[WanderingNephilim]

This is a really good idea and something I've thought about since I started playing D&D. I'm going to have to institute these rules.

 

[Unlogic]

After reading this, I ran off and made myself a huge pile of them for use in my campaign. My intention is to make a massive damage system using them; when a PC takes more damage than their healing surge value, I'll pick a Wound, and have it roll an attack vs fort to see if they suffer it. They're not tied to any particular mechanic of accumulating them though, so feel free to use them however you like, with whatever manner of house rule suits you.

All the numbers are based on the errata'd disease rules.

Sample:

Concussion (Level 7 wound)
A head injury has caused you to suffer mild brain trauma.
Attack: +10 vs Fort, Endurance: Improve 18, Maintain 13.

Cured
/
Suffer dizziness, lack of motor coordination, and difficulty balancing. Reduce all defenses by 1. -2 penalty to acrobatics, athletics, stealth, know ledges, and initiative. Make an Endurance check to maintain whenever you take damage.
/
Initial Effect: Severe disorientation. Reduce all defenses by 2. Skill and init penalty -4.
/
Permanently dazed. Still -2 defense. Skill and init penalty -6. Must make a save or be knocked prone whenever hit by an attack.

For more, see the attached word doc; I have over a dozen more there.

 

[Stalker0]

What I would do is institute mechanics to put in these debilitating wounds.

For example, here's a generic guideline.

Wounds: If a monster spends an action point, and that action knocks a character into the bloodied condition, he receives one wound of the monster's level or lower.

This would make wounds nonexistent in most fights, which I think is completely appropriate, but in solo fights you could definitely see it coming up. This makes solos a bit scarier, and make sure that wounds are a big deal...not a constant thing the party has to deal with.

 

[charcoalninja]

Personally I'd make the Cure Disease ritual work on these injuries. Cure disease becomes the catch all surgery ritual to fix up busted stuff. The players do need a way to be able to mend broken bones and other serious injuries after all.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

What I would do is institute mechanics to put in these debilitating wounds.

For example, here's a generic guideline.

Wounds: If a monster spends an action point, and that action knocks a character into the bloodied condition, he receives one wound of the monster's level or lower.

Clever. And also spiteful; sacrificing the monster's immediate combat ability for a lingering debilitation. You're pushing a couple of my favorite buttons.

 

[Cwheeler]

Wounds: If a monster spends an action point, and that action knocks a character into the bloodied condition, he receives one wound of the monster's level or lower.

Nice.

If you wanted to have wounds more frequently, you could always have them linked to critical hits... not with every critical, but you could easily construct a table that gives a chance for this to happen. You could even just roll a d20 again and if it comes up as a natural 20... Bam! it broke your arm (or inflicted another grievous injury).

Of course, if you increase the frequency, you may need to make sure that the initial effects aren't to debilitating... and give the PC's a way to return the favor! (probably by reducing the opponents damage or attack bonus, or even disabling one of it's attacks)

 

[jmucchiello]

This doesn't work for me. I like the concept but the execution is a bit off. Usually a broken limb is most debilitating when it first happens. Baker's example models gangrene very well. And well it should since gangrene is an infection/disease. But the mechanics of the arm itself being broken do not work correctly.

I also have a problem with any of these effects happening while the character has hit points. You should only gain a wound at 0 hit points. Make some kind of Con check versus the damage that causes you to drop. If you fail by 1 to 5 you get a wound of 1/3 the monster's level, 6 to 10 2/3 the monster's level and 11+ a wound of the monster's level.

Now I'll download that wound doc.

 

[grickherder]

This doesn't work for me. I like the concept but the execution is a bit off. Usually a broken limb is most debilitating when it first happens. Baker's example models gangrene very well. And well it should since gangrene is an infection/disease. But the mechanics of the arm itself being broken do not work correctly.

You could simply make a separate infection/gangrene disease effect and remove that from the broken arm thing (possibly revamping it).

I also have a problem with any of these effects happening while the character has hit points. You should only gain a wound at 0 hit points.

While I like this, I don't think it's always necessary for a character to be unconscious to receive an injury. I broke my tibia and was conscious the whole time. Though I wasn't exactly useful at that point. Perhaps it just takes redefining 0 hp or less as "useless and dying" rather than being unconscious every time.

Make some kind of Con check versus the damage that causes you to drop. If you fail by 1 to 5 you get a wound of 1/3 the monster's level, 6 to 10 2/3 the monster's level and 11+ a wound of the monster's level.

In keeping with 4th eds defense system, I'd rather have some sort of attack against a player's defense (likely Fortitude). Probably with the creature that inflicted the wound's attack bonus.