Kenzer & Co Dragon Ad - A RANT

[der_kluge]

Ok, if you have the latest issue of Dragon (#294), turn to page 109 (near the back).

There is a Kenzer & Co. Ad for a Kingdoms of Kalamar sourcebook. On the side, it has this little diary-like thing that a supposed player has written describing how they need an edge over the villians, and the new players' rules are just the thing they need to help them.

But, get this, in the diary's August 3 entry, near the bottom it reads:
"The best part is that every word is OFFICIAL Dungeons and Dragons so I can use this book in my Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk campaigns as well. Bonus!"


Now, I can't even BEGIN to describe how WRONG this statement is. First off, my understanding of Kenzer's license with WoTC basically just enables them to slap the D&D logo on their product. That's about as far as the "official-ness" ends. Kenzer & Co. is no more an official company than Mongoose, Thunderhead Games, or Mystic Eyes games is.
Secondly, no way in HELL would WoTC ever say "officially" "Yep, you can use all that stuff from Kalamar in Forgotton Realms - it's all good." That's just so wrong. FR is like WoTC's holy grail, and to SOIL it with stuff from any non-FR setting would make WoTC execs shiver in fear. Ain't gonna happen.
Third, from an individual game perspective, there's nothing stopping DMs from using ANYTHING in their Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk gampaign. Slap Bluffside near Waterdeep if you want to. Use all the races from Mythic Races in your Greyhawk campaign. Play an Bard from Book of Eldritch Might II in the middle of Shadowdale for all I care. There's nothing stopping you. I shudder to think that there are actually DMs out there so anal-retentive and naive that say "No, you can't use that D20 product in my FR campaign, it doesn't have a D&D logo on the cover." That's just so wrong.

Thoughts, opinions, flames?

Anyone from K & Co. want to respond to this?

 

[trancejeremy]

I was actually under the impression that Kenzer's D&D stuff had to be aproved by WOTC. Even though that is likely just a rubber stamp, it does let them call their stuff 'official' D&D stuff.

Actually, given the large amount of d20 stuff out there that is perhaps not balanced, it wouldn't be too surprising if some did disallow 3rd party d20 stuff but would allow things from official D&D books. Ideally the DM would actually look at the material to see if it fits his game or not, but not everyone has the time to do that...

 

[EOL]

That phrase bothered me as well (though seemingly not quite as much as it bothered you ) On it's face it seems like a somewhat transparent way of trying to really squeeze every last drop out of their D&D license.

And you're right as a DM I don't even let FR stuff in to Greyhawk, so the fact that they have an official license is not a carte blanche for universal cross-pollenation.

Over all the copy in that ad seemed fairly cheesy, as if the subtext was get the Kalamar players supplement and suddenly your player will be much more powerful than any of those wimpy "standard classes".

All this being said, I am definitely going to buy it because I just started playing in a campaign set in Kalamar. I'm kind of anal that way.

 

[Crothian]

It's an add. The purpose of an Add is to get you to buy this proiduct. Adds in general bend the truth, show items in the best light, and use other decietful methods to convince you to buy this product. This is the nature of advertisments. I've seen many commercials and other adds that I thought were must worst then this one. So, I'm not going to be the least bit upset by this add.

 

[EOL]

Ack! Much delayed double post!

 

[Greatwyrm]

--snip--

First off, my understanding of Kenzer's license with WoTC basically just enables them to slap the D&D logo on their product. That's about as far as the "official-ness" ends. Kenzer & Co. is no more an official company than Mongoose, Thunderhead Games, or Mystic Eyes games is.

Secondly, no way in HELL would WoTC ever say "officially" "Yep, you can use all that stuff from Kalamar in Forgotton Realms - it's all good." That's just so wrong. FR is like WoTC's holy grail, and to SOIL it with stuff from any non-FR setting would make WoTC execs shiver in fear. Ain't gonna happen.

Third, from an individual game perspective, there's nothing stopping DMs from using ANYTHING in their Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk gampaign. Slap Bluffside near Waterdeep if you want to. Use all the races from Mythic Races in your Greyhawk campaign. Play an Bard from Book of Eldritch Might II in the middle of Shadowdale for all I care. There's nothing stopping you. I shudder to think that there are actually DMs out there so anal-retentive and naive that say "No, you can't use that D20 product in my FR campaign, it doesn't have a D&D logo on the cover." That's just so wrong.

--snip--

As far as how official is "official", that's between WotC and K&C. However, I think Kenzer is the only company that can make 3E stuff without the Open Gaming License. IIRC, the worldbook for KoK doesn't have the license in back or any OGC.

WotC may actually say "Yep, it's all good for FR". A few days ago, everybody said they'd never let an outside company do Dragonlance either. Now we see that is not the case. Let's wait until the book's been out a few months and see if it's all legal for Living Greyhawk and Living Relams (whatever it's called). That will show pretty well how official it all is.

I think your third point is the long form of "Rule 0".

 

[Ywain]

I was actually under the impression that Kenzer's D&D stuff had to be aproved by WOTC. Even though that is likely just a rubber stamp, it does let them call their stuff 'official' D&D stuff.

Actually, given the large amount of d20 stuff out there that is perhaps not balanced, it wouldn't be too surprising if some did disallow 3rd party d20 stuff but would allow things from official D&D books. Ideally the DM would actually look at the material to see if it fits his game or not, but not everyone has the time to do that...

Given that these are the guys who wrote the Hackmaster books, I think that we should expect things to be over the top. I know that it is apples and oranges (Hackmaster and Kalamar) but they don't seem like the type of folks to be able to take off their 1e hats whenever they feel like it. I don't think the concept of balance existed back then.

I'm going to read the reviews before I buy this one.

 

[kenjib]

Kenzer has a very high quality standard. I could be wrong but I expect the book to be quite balanced and playable. As part of the license arrangement with WotC, all Kenzer books go through a review process at WotC from both the artwork staff and the design team. That means that their rules have been scrutinized both in-house as well as by the WotC staff. If Kenzer gets to put the "D&D" logo on their stuff it is very much in WotC's interests to make sure that Kenzer is putting out good stuff, otherwise it reflects poorly on the core product line for both companies. Kenzer books have a much longer lead time than books from other publishers. The WotC review process has added several months to the development cycle for some (or maybe all of them, for all I know, but I know some of them for sure) Kenzer products in the past. That's probably why it can be called official. I agree that the ad is a bit heavy-handed though. Kenzer has a lot of spunk. It's kind of funny to me but I can definitely see why it would bother people.

 

[der_kluge]

This begs the question of what is Official.

In some second edition products, namely a few generic supplements, WoTC (then TSR) took the time to include a section detailing how said product might work within the various TSR worlds.

I can't think of any products off-hand, but I know I have something at home which has a section which says something like "Forgotten Realms - in the Realms, magical bunnies are very common, and most people are familiar with them. Greyhawk - Magical Bunnies are not as common in Greyhawk, and are generally feared", etc, etc.

I don't know if we'll ever see such a product from WoTC for 3rd edition, but it would be interesting to see WHICH products they would include in such a list.

Would Kingdoms of Kalamar get an entry?
Would Ravenloft?
Dragonlance?
???

 

[Lady Dragon]

Might I point out that this ad was in Dragon magazine.If Wizards didn't like they wouldn't have put it in their magazine so maybe it is official besides its not that big of a deal.