Khorvaire:Two Problems

[Mythtify]

Thank you.

The level of disrespect 'gamists' have for people with a different perspective is just plain unacceptable.

You can easily make a setting meet the bulk of needs for all three core camps, and there's no place for such a dismissive tone towards those who find simulation important in a setting.

How can something that has no real world model to be simulated, be simulated. There is no way that the effect of magic on a world can be realisticly simulated. There is no way to collect the data and apply it to a model. The effects of magic on any factor of a world can not be simulated.

 

[Kichwas]

I disagree.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

So it's "The only needs that are valid are those of people who only care about gamism in order to get into the game, never those who care about story or simulation". Everyone else can be rudely dismissed...

Figures.

 

[Kichwas]

How can something that has no real world model to be simulated, be simulated. There is no way that the effect of magic on a world can be realisticly simulated. There is no way to collect the data and apply it to a model. The effects of magic on any factor of a world can not be simulated.

Given how quantified DnD's magic system is - it's more scientific than science - it's quite easy to look at from a perspective of 'if we take real world thinking, and add this, that ought to be the result'.

Everytime people say 'well magic changes it, and makes that real world analogy not valid' there's an obvious reply:

How does it change it?


Even if your magic is totally unpredictable, there's still an answer to be found in that - it makes things unpredictable, so we start with the known, and introduce unpredictable elements.


Of course, DnD magic is -totally- predictable.

 

[Mythtify]

Given how quantified DnD's magic system is - it's more scientific than science - it's quite easy to look at from a perspective of 'if we take real world thinking, and add this, that ought to be the result'.

The only problem with that is that DnD dosen't quantify all aspects of magic. Most of the magic that DnD describes applies to combat, or the effects of combat. How magic effects the daily lives of individuals, or the make up of a society is usualy left largely in the hands of the DM.

 

[Aaron L]

I am a Simulationist, and the reason for the population density has been quite well explained for me.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

There seems to be a lot of expertise on how to properly designa game world here. It would be nice to see that expertise put to good use, by designing a new, coherent, totally logical (if fantastic) setting for a game. It would be interesting to see how well such settings would hold up under close scrutiny. Let's hope someone takes the leap and lets us see such a setting.

 

[coyote6]

Yes, it would seem that this criticism about Eberron does punch your mom on the head at least.

Perhaps it's not criticism about Eberron per se, but rather the tone of (some of) the statements of said criticism. That said, as others have said, I wouldn't dismiss the criticism itself. It does seem fairly easy to solve, and many have mentioned it.

That said, D&D, given its rules & peculiarities, always struck me as a horrible system for a simulationist (barring some very odd simulations). Any simulation that has to take into account a few fully-equipped 16th+ level fighters (who could probably demolish an entire army, if you assume the standard "most people are 1st level") will tend to fall apart, get really contrived (e.g., "they all cancel each other out!"), or become rapidly alien to most gamers' tastes. Then try to deal with 16th-20th level spellcasters (let's not even worry about epic level spellcasters, interventionist balors & solars, active great wyrm dragons, or the like). We also won't mention the default economy.

I'd think population density would be a trivial problem, in comparison.

(Besides, it's like old-school World of Greyhawk! Remember the original population figures of that setting?)

(My own simulationist D&D bugaboo is the insistence that most people are first level; that they never become more competent than they are at the beginning of adulthood. And that they are forever to be in danger of fatal injury should a small housecat become angry with them. )

 

[Abraxas]

In the real world that takes population density. In fantasy, if you lack population density all you gotta tell me is what replaces it to meet those goals.

It seems to me they have told you.

The population of Eberron is A. The setting has the economic and social characteristics B and C. According to the description of the setting those characteristics function perfectly well with the population given.

Why does it have to be spelled out in a manner like "Because of the influence of the three dragons and the pervasiveness of magic the people and land are an order of magnitude more productive than the people and land of any medieval in the real world"?

As for factors of 5, 7, 10, or 15... As soon as you have a number that can handle the kind of society described, in consideration of the four factors above being met by either mundane or magical means, and somebody out there can rationalize it given the explainations given - people will stop pointing it out.

Unless they don't agree with the factor given. If you think x5 is enough and MM thinks x12 is required why would MM stop saying the population is too low because you now think its OK?

The rudeness of all this, is the complete refusal by gamists to see any needs but their own as being valid for a game setting.

Of course the simulationists seem to be doing the same.

What you do, is take a real world value that works if it was real world, and then up or down it according to how magic affects it - based on what magic is doing in your setting to those four basic needs.

Why can't a tenfold increase in productivity/efficiency/whatever be assumed by the description instead of explicitly stated?

In the real world, in a world without magic, without everyday visible displays of divine power, without a multitude of different intelligent species, without elementals/living constructs/dragons/giants and a host of other creatures that break the laws of nature, these numbers don't work - why can't they work by default in a world with all that other stuff?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Pseudonym]

Hong could talk to you about chickens.

I'm turing up a blank of my forum search. Could you elaborate a bit about Hong's chickens, please?

 

[dwilgar]

That's a false statistic because until recently most of the USA was not actually the USA - Washington only thought it was.

Excuse me? In the early 1900s the USA was actually the USA. In many ways the early 1900s of the USA is very similar to Eberron; highly populated regions combines with large, relatively empty areas. Compare Alaska, the northern portions of the great plains, and the desert southwest (of the early 20th century) to the Mournland, Q'barra, The Shadow Marshes, and the Demon Wastes. I am not saying the Eberron still doesn't have somewhat low population values, but I do question that 40/sq. mile value. The value may be appropriate on some smaller, more localized level, but really doesn't seem to hold up when applied to populations with large density variations (such as Eberron).

Dwilgar