Khorvaire:Two Problems

[AdmundfortGeographer]

So it's "The only needs that are valid are those of people who only care about gamism in order to get into the game, never those who care about story or simulation". Everyone else can be rudely dismissed...

Pout about it all you want. I was being brief. You took it as rudeness. I've posted about it at length enough.

You already know this, but again, not all needs can be met by a single presentation. And I am a simulationist. I love designing worlds. I don't see Eberron's anomolous population numbers to be a flaw to be corrected, but rather a mystery that may have an explanation. I've examined the facts of the situation enough to satisfy my interest.

 

[Piratecat]

Folks, please walk away from the keyboard for twenty minutes if you're tempted to post here and be rude. We can discuss differences in opinion without sinking to personal swipes. Honest.

 

[RangerWickett]

Likewise, I'm sorry if I came across as rude or dismissive. I was only attempting to express my dislike of the argument, not to say that I dislike the people who ascribe to that belief.

I can see where the people who want realistic statistics come from. If you're going to pay $40 for a rulebook, the rules need to be well done. If you're going to pay $40 for a setting book, the setting needs to be well done. I personally have never bought a setting book aside from Talislanta (I got my Eberron copy as a prize at Origins), so I approached the argument from the point of view of only wanting good rules.

Well, good rules and good ideas. I like things that inspire me, and Eberron has a lot of inspiring elements. I just had different criteria.

Since the discussion here has pretty much devolved into simply, "I care about population," and "I don't," let's just end the discussion. Nothing's going to change, so why risk irking folks.

 

[Hellcow]

The ball is in WotC's court on this for the same reason it was when the Halfling Outrider was given no BaB.

No, it's not.

If a class has no BaB, no one knows what the original intent was. If you guess and are wrong, you've changed the intended power of the class. Furthermore, it is clear to anyone who looks at the book "I do not have all the information that I require." The class cannot be used as is, and anyone who looks at it knows this.

In the case of population density, it is an issue that concerns a small group of people. Most people don't even understand the issue. They are already playing using the current numbers.

So, if WotC comes along and says "Oh, we've cut the size of the maps in half", it's confusing. Adding missing material is one thing, but contradicting what is already in print is quite another. Not everyone is going to see the errata. DMs and players will get into arguments about which size is correct.

Thus, the ball is in your court. *YOU* have a problem with this number. You can fix it, easily, and make your game work by adding a zero in your campaign. The person who never saw it as a problem will stick by the numbers in his book and he'll still be happy. You can feel superior for having solved a problem, and hopefully enjoy Eberron.

With that said, you said before that you've seen hints that Khorvaire may not be fully settled... which I've said a few times on this thread. You do realize that I'm the guy who designed the setting, right? Check back on my earlier posts. There are supposed to be large areas in all of the nations that are not settled by the human and demihuman races, along with areas depopulated during the war. Centers of development have formed around the most suitable areas, which may have been considered suitable because of pre-existing fortification or because of magical phenomenon (manifest zones)(which, of course, defy real-world logic). Where there is a major city, there will be thorps and hamlets around it, and then, yes, a large unsettled region until you reach the next major settlement. Largely, these areas are self-sufficient, which is why they have been established where they are to begin with. Thus, while House Orien can make cooling caravans, most of these settlements do not relying on the distant cities for survival. So Breland is more an alliance of far-flung city-states than one big massive settlement -- though all of the cities give their fealty to Boranel.

It is not my intention to be disrespectful to you at all. My point is that WotC will not officially address this issue (while I'm not a WotC employee, I'm pretty confident about this). So, you're a clever simulationist. Can you either a) come up with a way to make the numbers work for you or b) come up with a new solution -- shrinking the continent, adding a zero -- that you can use in your campaign? Can you find a solution for yourself? Because if you can solve the problem for yourself, and another person never had a problem in the first place... everyone gets to play. Otherwise, you are the one who loses out in this scenario, which is unfortunate.

More about the five nations -- population and all -- will be released in the future. But for the present, do what you have to do!

 

[LostSoul]

I'm turing up a blank of my forum search. Could you elaborate a bit about Hong's chickens, please?

I think it has to do with the number of chickens available in a town at any time. It's based on the PHB price for a chicken (1 cp), and the gold piece limit or whatever it is that tells you how much you can buy of something in a town from the DMG demographics. You get hordes and hordes of chickens available for purchase this way.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm turing up a blank of my forum search. Could you elaborate a bit about Hong's chickens, please?

hong pointed out in one of the many D&D economics is silly threads, that you shouldn't think too hard about such details, because you get the city of Greyhawk having...well, read it for yourself right here.

 

[Pseudonym]

Thanks for the chicken explanation. That was amusing.

 

[fredramsey]

Amen.

No one is standing over the simulationist's shoulders and telling them not to change things.

EDIT: Comment snipped by Henry for ignoring Piratecat's warnings to be civil to one another in this discussion.

<snip>Thus, the ball is in your court. *YOU* have a problem with this number. You can fix it, easily, and make your game work by adding a zero in your campaign. The person who never saw it as a problem will stick by the numbers in his book and he'll still be happy. You can feel superior for having solved a problem, and hopefully enjoy Eberron.
<snip>

 

[Belen]

More importantly, it has them charging 5 gp/page for use of a message station, which is far more effective than whispering wind. The message station is your primary fast long-distance communication, if the post is too slow for you. Yes, 5 gp is still too much for the average peasant, but as Eric has noted, Eberron is feudal; we never wanted every farmer to have a cellphone of sending. Most people just don't have a need to communicate with people across the country; and for those that do, the Sivis message stations are just as effective as the telegraph.


Actually, if you read my previous post, you'll see that I said nothing of the sort. I said that if you don't like the setting, either find a way to address your concerns on your end or don't play it -- not because you may not have valid concerns, but because WotC cannot make the game perfect for everyone. I appreciate that you bought it and looked at it. I've never said everyone will like it. The fact of the matter is that many won't, and if you're in that camp, good for you -- don't play it. But if you don't like it for one specific reason, perhaps you can find a way to solve that problem, with or without the help of others on this board.

To that end, I agree with both jgbrowning and Wizardru. This discussion is valuable if it provides the people who dislike the population issue with valid alternatives, so that someone who likes the setting can say "OK, I'll use the idea of reducing the continent to 1/50th its current size." If that makes the world work for you, go for it, even if it never will be official - and I applaud you for working around our perceived failings. If on the other hand, as Wizardru said, the point is simply to say "the game flat-out cannot be played because of the population issue" and to continue to harp on that -- well, if it entertains people to complain, then that has its own value, but you don't find a solution by piling on more complaints.

On the other hand, if you want a "Why I hate Eberron" thread just for the sheer intellectual joy of discussing what idiots game designers are -- hey, a good discussion is its own reward.

Now, I never said hate. I may even pull stuff from the setting to incorporate in my homebrew. When I read through the book, I get the feeling of over the top cartoons or action-movies. The cartoony art really enhances that feeling for me.

This setting will be wonderful for a 10-15 year old to begin playing DnD, and it simulates a lot of the gaming styles I liked when I was younger, but it really does not serve my interests now.

Funny enough, I can almost see where your ideas must have been and where WOTC decided to deviate from them.

All in all, I think you did a great job, Keith, but I do not think that Hasbro will make a good go of things.

 

[fredramsey]

Insulting

This is exactly the kind of insults I'm talking about.

<snip>
This setting will be wonderful for a 10-15 year old to begin playing DnD, and it simulates a lot of the gaming styles I liked when I was younger, but it really does not serve my interests now.
<snip>