Khorvaire:Two Problems

[mythusmage]

Too few people. Too few countries. Multiplying both by five would help a lot.

Discuss.

 

[Snoweel]

I really don't get the people who are amazed at the lack of population in the setting.

I mean, that is how many people live there.

The Earth was as sparsey populated once. It must have been.

If your beef is with population vs technology level as compared to RL Earth, then get a life - Eberron's not Earth.

Really, it's not.

 

[SteelDraco]

The continent should be rather empty. A whole heck of a lot of people have just died, and the population of the civilized parts of the world haven't even started to recover. After all, the Last War JUST ended. Think of Britain or France two years after the end of WW2. Things are still being rebuilt. In my mind, most large cities in Eberron are now about half empty. That's how many people had died. There were so few able-bodied warriors left that they had to start building them. Think about how desperate they would have needed to be in order to do something that expensive.

As to the low number of countries, I can see that better. Seems to me that things would have ended up a bit more fractured than they are in the book, with small warbands ruling the fringes of all the major nations, where they couldn't afford to keep things patrolled. I'd say there was a lot of lawlessness as one reaches the edges of a nation.

 

[demiurge1138]

Too few people? Possibly. But considering the fact that the continent has been decimated by a century long war helps to mitigate this. Also, consider, as other threads have brought up, the fact that in modern society, there are large, well-developed countries with low population densities (such as Canada and Australia). I might put more people in Eberron, but certainly not by a factor of five.

Too few countries? No. The setting's range of nations is more than sufficient for my needs, especially considering the Dragonmarked houses and other political movers and shakers that don't happen to have a nation. Also, it's worth pointing out that large tracts of land are either not governed (the Mournlands) or have central government only in theory (Droam, Darguun).

Demiurge out.

 

[Express]

I just spent 5 minutes looking for an earlier thread abouth this very topic from a week or 2 ago. But no dice.

You can play with the numbers however you want, but I agree with Snoweel. Eberron isnt Earth.

 

[Derulbaskul]

I seem to recall that the population per square mile numbers for Eberron were about the same as Australia in the present day so it definitely can make sense.

 

[Hellcow]

Too few people. Too few countries. Multiplying both by five would help a lot.

On the subject of countries, my original 100-page bible DID have more countries. We reduced the number of countries during the development process (largely by merging ideas) and I'm very glad that we did. As it stands, we *still* didn't have enough room to give each country as much of a focus as they deserve, and who knows how long it will be before we can provide supplimental material for each. Simply double the countries, and you'd be dealing with half as much space for each in Chapter 7 - would you really be happy with the results? It might be more realistic, but this is fantasy -- I think fewer countries with strong identities is better than more countries that you know less about.

But with that said:
* Bear in mind that the Lhazaar Principalities, Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, and Q'barra are really aggregate entities as opposed to solid countries with one clear leader.
* Need more? Civil war in Karrnath splits the nation between Kaius and Vol fanatics! Thrane splits between the monarchy and the Church! The Queen of Stone lays claim to her own section of Droaam! The Kech Volaar proclaim their own nation in Darguun! Bam! Four new countries in the blink of an eye...

As for population, the war is a factor, and folks are spread out. If you want to increase it, pretend that it doesn't include children and double it (since city populations don't).

 

[storyguide3]

I really don't get the people who are amazed at the lack of population in the setting.

I mean, that is how many people live there.

The Earth was as sparsey populated once. It must have been.

If your beef is with population vs technology level as compared to RL Earth, then get a life - Eberron's not Earth.

Really, it's not.

First off, who peed in your cereal today?

Second, try these figures on for size.

Khorvaire has an area of some 9.3 million square miles.

It has an estimated population density of 1.6 per square mile.

14th century England had a pop.density of about 42/Sq. Mile

Let us assume that before the war, Khorvaire was slightly less populated than England (even though England was the least populous namtion in Europe at the time. Let's set the density to 1/2 that of England, 21/sq. mile.

That gives us a population of about 195,000,000. There are now about 16,000,000 people of all the counted races on Khorvaire. That means somewhere around 179,000,000 people died during the Last War. Some died of natural causes and accident, but then again others were born.

That's one heck of a war. I should think that a war that could kill that many people would have left the place far more devastated than comes across in the book. Civiallization would be a total shambles. Less than 10% of the people survived.

There is no reason given in the text as to why the prewar population should be any lower than that encountered in Europe during the late Middle Ages or early Reanaissance. In fact, given the amount of magic available and the fact that the Dragonmarked Houses had been around for centuries, there should be more people than I used above. The only reason we are given for the low poopulation is the war. Again, one heck of a war.

Frankly, there probably shouldn't be any countries left after a war that devastating, let alone functioning rail lines, newspapers and people adventuring. The adventure of Eberron should be, "get the crops in so we don't starve".

Now, if you like the population figures the way they are, fine. Whatever floats your boat is no problem with me. Just don't act like a jerk and tell people to "get a life" when they pose a very valid comment about a part of an otherwise excellent setting that just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

By the way, I'd say the last time any major continent on Earth was that sparsely populated, we were inventing agriculture and cities, certainly not creating liiving machines and printing newspapers.

 

[mythusmage]

I seem to recall that the population per square mile numbers for Eberron were about the same as Australia in the present day so it definitely can make sense.

Khorvaire is not Australia. Khorvaire has the resources Australia does not. Australia has the population it does because it is a barren land. European or even American levels of fertility are few and far between.

First, Khorvaire is a dang sight larger. It's some 5,000 miles across east to west. 'Bout half that north to south. Khorvaire is about the size of Asia. With a smaller population than California. With that level of population the civilized folks should be living along rivers in city states, with the interior inhabited by roving bands of nomads.

Let me put it this way, Asia as a whole last had that few people back before the first pre-Sumerian towns were established in Mesopotamia.

Eberron presumes a 14th century level of technology. Twenty-six million people in a fantasy Asia is not enough to maintain that technology and the infrastructure needed to support it.

Furthermore, even if Khorvair had about 150 million people, the peoples of Khorvair don't have the infrastructure necessary for nations of the size presented on the maps. Going by the write-ups the Five Kingdoms are more like the Five Counties. The feel is small nation, not large.

To put it another way, when I look at the map of Thrane and the space between Sigilstar and Morningcrest I don't see a a month long trek but a day long hike.

Dammit, if you're going to present huge countries they should look like huge countries.

As for the Last War, even with a pre-war population twice the size it is now there wouldn't have been enough people to sustain the fighting over the distances involved.

No, Eberron tries to present a population the size of Italy's in a land the size of the old Soviet Union, with the level of organization and government seen in feudal times. It doesn't work. It can't work.

Even with magic. Even with magic more prevalent and more affordable than is found in modern day Khorvair. Because you need people to maintain things. People Khorvair does not have. Remove 90% of Europe's population and see what happens to her road and rail network alone.

So it's a fantasy. Whoop. The better fantasies make sense where the mundane details are concerned. At least the hobbits of The Shire had visible means of support. As it stands Eberron is a world with no visible means of support, and that's an unhealthy way to live.

 

[mythusmage]

On the subject of countries, my original 100-page bible DID have more countries. We reduced the number of countries during the development process (largely by merging ideas) and I'm very glad that we did. As it stands, we *still* didn't have enough room to give each country as much of a focus as they deserve, and who knows how long it will be before we can provide supplimental material for each. Simply double the countries, and you'd be dealing with half as much space for each in Chapter 7 - would you really be happy with the results? It might be more realistic, but this is fantasy -- I think fewer countries with strong identities is better than more countries that you know less about.

But with that said:
* Bear in mind that the Lhazaar Principalities, Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, and Q'barra are really aggregate entities as opposed to solid countries with one clear leader.
* Need more? Civil war in Karrnath splits the nation between Kaius and Vol fanatics! Thrane splits between the monarchy and the Church! The Queen of Stone lays claim to her own section of Droaam! The Kech Volaar proclaim their own nation in Darguun! Bam! Four new countries in the blink of an eye...

As for population, the war is a factor, and folks are spread out. If you want to increase it, pretend that it doesn't include children and double it (since city populations don't).

Keith, you put too little into too much. The place is simply too big for the number of people given. It would've been far better to place the current nations of Khorvair in the east, leaving the bulk of the continent to be developed later.

As for the war. Any event that dropped the population of a land mass the size of Asia to less than 30 million would not leave countries behind.

Eberron 2e: Let's get it right this time.