Ki Focus Question

[mneme]

This is simple enough.

When a monk (or assassin or any other weapon-using psionic character) uses a weapon as an implement, they aren't hitting things with the weapon. They're hitting things with their Chi (or, if you like, with their mind).

As such, they don't get any of the features they'd get if they were hitting people with the weapon -- no high crit, no weapon die, no weapon properties like brutal -- those all affect the weapon's physical form--but the physical weapon isn't going anywhere near their foes, any more than a Swordmage's sword is hitting people when they channel arcs of lightning or bursts of fire through it. They do get the weapon's magical properties (just like a swordsmage or sorcerer gets from their weapon), as the attack's being channelled through the weapon.

But the weapon isn't hitting their enemies. Psychic force (or magic, if you like) is hitting their enemies. (edit: Or your fists! The point is that for a monk, the weapon they're holding, if they bother bringing on, is a prop--a power source, but not something to use directly against their enemies. Against foes, a monk uses fists, feet, their head, or any other part of their body--maybe part of their weapon if it's convenient, but not in any way where the fact that it's a weapon overrrides their technique. The weapon comes into play when using multiclass powers or making attacks of opportunity -- but why would a monk use a weapon rather than holistic technique in situations (most of them) where the technique is far more effective? Their ability to channel the weapon's magic and magical properties is enough!)

 

[Flipguarder]

So it seems to me that it is necessary for all optimized monks to use a magic weapon as their ki focus.

 

[mneme]

Why? I mean, the only problem I see with monks overall is that there isn't a notation that when you throw a non-magical weapon with (not as) your ki focus, that it returns to your hand as if it were magical (this is much more signfiicant a problem for some assassin paragon paths).

But other than that, there's really not much difference between using a weapon as your monk implement (not as your ki focus! You can't use a weapon as a ki focus, or monks would be able to wield one weapon and apply its magical properties to an entirely different weapon!) and using a ki focus as your monk implement (and wielding a non-magical weapon for opportunity attack use) -- except for the specific properties available to you.

The big one, of course, is that your ki focus can be used while dual-wielding, which is awesome if you play a monk multiclassing to ranger or whatnot. So really, it goes the other way (unless Wizards hoses ki focuses regarding thrown weapons); except for specific properties and magic abilities, there's never any reason for a monk's primary weapon to -not- be a ki focus, as that acts just like a magic weapon except that it can't be disarmed, can have its enchantment automatically moved between weapons, and can be dual wielded just by wielding two weapons. For a secondary weapon, it might make sense to use a magical weapon, as you can then choose to switch between your ki focus's abilities and your weapons' abilties as a free action, but in what way (aside from thrown weapons) is a ki focus + nonmagical weapon -not- superior to a magic weapon?

Ok, there's one -- loaning out to your friends. But.

 

[Turtlejay]

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. The bit about properties refers to the magic properties a weapon may have. The 'always on' bits. There is no reason the innate properties of the nonmagic nature of the weapon are ignored. It is the magic that is overwritten.

Also, I have the ki focus rules (I am playing an Assassin), and I don't see where you can use just anything as a ki focus. In fact, if you use the CB, it only gives you the list of magical ki focuses as options to equip in that slot.

I think that, in much the same way a holy symbol can be a stylized representation of something, but not be functional, you can use a ritualistic weapon as a 'focus', but you don't need to stab anyone to use it. You are meditating on it, but it stays in your pocket during encounters. That is how *I* understand ki focuses, but I admit, I am not much of a rules lawyer.

jay

 

[1of3]

So it seems to me that it is necessary for all optimized monks to use a magic weapon as their ki focus.

(i) You do not use weapons as ki-focuses. (Ki-focuses are seperate kind of items.) You can overwrite a weapon's magic with a ki-focus.

(ii) Monks can also use both ki-focuses and weapons as implements.

Those are different things.


Concerning (ii):
When you use a weapon as an implement you do not get the proficiency bonus or other non-magic weapon properties (like high crit). That is the case, whenever a weapon is used as an implement.

Monks and all other weapon as implement users still get to use the magic properties of the weapon. That is everything on the yellow card.


Concerning (i):
A monk will only do this for basic attacks and multiclass powers, because monk powers do not have the Weapon keyword. To use a monk power, a monk will either use a ki-focus or use a weapon as an implement.

Now, you can use a power with the Weapon keyword and do that overwriting. You can still use all the mundane of properties (high crit...) of the piece of metal, but all the stuff on the yellow card is replaced by the ki-focus yellow card.

Although that's fine and logical in a vacuum, that's just not in line with everything else in D&D. No other class needs to be in tune with a magic item to use it.

Obviously, they all do. They just do not think about it.

... Hey, you asked how you could justify the rule from an in-character perspective.