"Kill the Sacred Cow!"

[Moggthegob]

i duno.i like vancian magic. its what makes being a wizard what it is. without it i am not sure i would want to even play dnd becus i usually only play wizards and clerics and would prefer a total power limit. I am not a fighter player or a rogue player just by type. Maybe id be a paladin( but without alignment wheres the point and sacrifice to be made) So i feel it would really ruin the experience for me.

Vancian magic helped make some of my most memorable game experiences. And honestly, whats more exciting than using your last spell in memory and praying it works. a system with at will and per encounter stuff would really take that away.( i dislike per encounter for so many reasons the most of which i howd you get it back and if it were that easy to get it back why not get it back in battle and i owuld hate if ou got stuff back during battle)

also, it gave justification for why dungeon delves took so long. it may not be fantasy at large but to me it is dnd

 

[howandwhy99]

sacred cows = old game mechanics that no longer operate under the new system as they had previously been designed to. The more of these old mechanics you get rid of, the less D&D is the original game. But to really change, you have to know when a mechanic is no longer serving any purpose under the new rules and move on.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Yeah, but if it were in a wireless age, the hacker would still be a distance away from the enemy. In 4e shadowrun, if you want to hack into a mainframe, if it's protected, you have to be there. It's a way to keep the party together, which is something that isn't really required in cyberpunk (wasn't then, and it still doesn't apply).

IME, many of the runs I run/played in SR and CP {and to a degree, in SW} ended up with the Decker being with the party due to either isolated systems or {heaven forbid} a well built net security that choke-pointed entry so you had to come in stripped down... altho I have also seen the archtypal Decker sitting in Chiba sipping on sake while supporting a run in London....

The way I would run things today is that wireless does let you connect from anywhere, but you are adding at least two extra IPs to your run {increased difficulty/reduces reaction time} and you have this radio signal that meatworld security can track down pretty quick. This retains the modern concepts of computing with the 'need to jack in' mentality of the original stories. Which, incidently, is how many of the current cyperpunk novels treat it.


But, regarding sacred cows... its pretty obvious that the mechanics do a large part of setting the tone of the game, so altering rules will alter the game. Some sacred cows may still be needed simply because a 'better' acceptable system doesn't really exist. For instance, the Vancian magic system {as mentioned above} is more about providing the power of fantasy magic while not overpowering the game. Elements of Magic is, IMHO, a much better system. However it isn't accepatable to everyone as it requires more complexity. It appears that WOTC is finding a compromise of partially retaining the Vancian spells per day, but addressing the' but I don't want to run out of options' whine of non-resource management players {who should be playing the fighter...IMO}

Anyway,
To me D&D is a roleplaying game of swords and sorcery, and I can run a D&D game using any edition rules, CP rules, or Chaosims Elric/stormbringer {any edition} . If 4E takes out the Paladin class, I will still be able to play a religious zealot Gish... it will still be 'Dungeons and Dragons', but each would have a slightly different feel to the game and a different method to building the concept you want.

 

[SSquirrel]

It appears that WOTC is finding a compromise of partially retaining the Vancian spells per day, but addressing the' but I don't want to run out of options' whine of non-resource management players {who should be playing the fighter...IMO}

Of course you have to consider, is resource management FUN? "Oh I'm a 3rd level character, we've had 2 encounters and if I hadn't used my spells in those fights we would have had at least 1 person die. Oops, the DM has another fight for us. Crap, time for the daggers and crossbow" People play wizards to be able to use magic. You act like people are whining that they can't throw fireball all day long. We just want to be able to actually use our magic to solve problems. I don't think any of the 0 level spells from 3E just being at will is going to be what one would call game breaking. A crossbow would be a more damaging option than those spells, but it will at least feel more like you are a wizard. I think reducing the effect of the current D&D magic system on 4E will only lead to increased immersion of characters and happier players in general.

I think the "non-resource management players" you mention above will choose a warrior over a wizard when the warrior has magic I cant' speak for everyone, but the times I play a wizard its cuz I wanna cast spells, first and foremost.

 

[Tarek]

Of course you have to consider, is resource management FUN? "Oh I'm a 3rd level character, we've had 2 encounters and if I hadn't used my spells in those fights we would have had at least 1 person die. Oops, the DM has another fight for us. Crap, time for the daggers and crossbow"

At-will cantrips is one thing. The impression I'm getting is that in 4e all Wizards will really be Warlocks with a few memorized spells on top.

The resource management game is fun for me. It adds tension and forces strategic use of spells, not just tactical use of spells. It also gives a real reason for the use and creation of wands, scrolls, and potions, all expendable magic items that don't have as much utility if the Wizard can just blast all day long.

The "Vancian" system forces Wizards to think and to plan ahead.

I'm not surprised by the direction taken; these days it seems to be more about the instant gratification rather than the sweetness of power delayed.

I'm not immune to this approach... I hate dead devels myself, but I can put up with them in a campaign where the story and the adventure are more important than the feats and tricks you get.

I guess it just feels like 4e will be too far from its original D&D and 1st edition roots, where magic was a fantastic element and if you were lucky you'd get some unusual magic item or stumble across a +1 sword at 1st level.

With Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, it just seems like magic is the equivalent of technology and just as ubiquitous.

 

[Li Shenron]

One problem with killing sacred cows is that everyone is sure that only the cows she doesn't like are going to be killed...

 

[Tarek]

Of course, I just remembered something... we are discussing Pratchett, in a way. His magic system was originally based on D&D, but he's added things over the years (Dungeon Dimensions, Them, Sourcery, different levels of magic available in small regions, etc).

 

[SSquirrel]

The "Vancian" system forces Wizards to think and to plan ahead.

All the planning ahead in the world does you no good if you have to spend all your spells to keep people alive and then you end up w/more encounters prior to resting. That is an example of a class being punished for doing its thing, as has been mentioned in a few other threads and I think at the GenCon sessions.

I'm not immune to this approach... I hate dead levels myself, but I can put up with them in a campaign where the story and the adventure are more important than the feats and tricks you get.

The story is always important, but if you cast you 4 or 5 spells (low level game obviously) and then just have to stand in th back shooting a crossbow and hoping no enemies get abck to you, how is that fun? Also, there are no dead levels in 4E.

I guess it just feels like 4e will be too far from its original D&D and 1st edition roots, where magic was a fantastic element and if you were lucky you'd get some unusual magic item or stumble across a +1 sword at 1st level.

Lucky to find magic items and 1E should never be mentioned in the same sentence. Players needed to have a castle at level 1 just to hold all the loot they got in modules

With Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, it just seems like magic is the equivalent of technology and just as ubiquitous.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke

There was an old article in Dragon years ago about how D&D would look different if they actually followed the logical extensions of having vast curative, food/water generation, flight, fireballs, continual light, etc. It was very interesting. I know that Ptolus took a lot of the aspects of 3E and followed them to logical conclusions, which I thought was pretty great.
I think Eberron does a very good job of showing what happens in a society where magic has been around as long as it has. You know if we had D&D style magic in the real world life would be insanely different

 

[Hussar]

On the whole Vancian Magic=Forward planning.

That's the problem in a nutshell isn't it? How do you plan for the future? How are you possibly going to know before you head into that dungeon that the Macguffin is underwater? ((Yeah, yeah, gather information and all that, but, stick with me here))

So many spells are extremely limited in use. Take something like Arcane Lock. Fantastic spell for resting in a dungeon. But, at low levels, are you going to choose Arcane Lock or Invisibility? Which one is more likely to be useful? I'm willing to bet that most wizard players choose invisibility. So, we wind up with a PHB full of spells that almost never see the light of day and a small handful of spells that are used all the time.

One eye opening experience for me was back in 2e. I house ruled that clerics could cast any spell from their spheres as needed, up to their daily limit. No memorization. It wound up that 90% of the time, they cast exactly the same spells as if they had memorized, because those were the spells that they most often needed - healing, poison protection, that sort of thing.

I'd much rather see a wizard have a spell list that he could choose from as needed so that you don't have the "Hey guys, I don't have that spell today, but, if we rest for a day, I'll have it tomorrow." That happens an awful lot.

 

[SSquirrel]

That was one of the big reasons I loved Arcana Evolved's magic rules. You know a large number of spells and can cast more flexibly as well as rather quickly swap out spells as needed.