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D&D 5E Killing a Teammate

I don't understand why it is automatically evil. If they are in dire straits, they are not morally obligated to sacrifice their whole team to attempt to spare an overly burdensome comrade. 9 sessions is a long time, in terms of obstacles and danger. That fighter might be as good as dead, depending on the tone and difficulty of the game. In survival/war situations this stuff comes up a lot, it is why people who come out of those don't like to talk about it. They had to make hard choices.

This is a combination of the classic "lifeboat" dilemma and "Of Mice and Men". Both of those scenarios make an argument for a moral mercy killing.

It's automatically evil because in the D&D cosmology there is an actual 'good' and 'evil' dichotomy. Certain acts are always evil.

When you start to dissect it, it can get a bit messy. Killing an orc? Good. Pretty much based on the concept of them being a 'monster' along with a nod to Tolkien in that they are a corrupt race that can't be anything but evil. Killing a helpless orc? Generally considered OK as well.

Killing with the intent to raise? Generally speaking the cosmos doesn't take into account intent. It's a black and white thing, much like the light and dark side in Star Wars. Anger, jealousy, hatred, all are paths to the dark side. Whether you continue to follow that path is a different question.

Obviously, in the game world itself a given culture will have very different ideas. In your home campaign you're welcome to do what you want.

But part of what I love about the game is it gives you the opportunity to work through things like this in game. A mercy killing is (and should be) a hard decision to make. In my view, I don't think whether the God will deny the character (paladin or cleric) should even enter into the discussion. That's a metagame discussion, even though there could be in-game repercussions. Nor do I think the DM should weigh in regarding it. The characters should work through the problem and their own point of view. Is turning back an option? Can they abandon their quest and go for help? Can one of them stay and nurse the companion while the other looks for help?

While it's the characters that have to make this decision, it's the players that have to do it for them. Think about your own perspective. If the character is in a coma with no ability to eat or drink, and death is assured in a short time (a few days probably), what do you do? Do you stay with them, comfort them as you can, and provide a proper and sacred death and burial? Or do you kill them and then give them a proper burial? The lifeboat dilemma, Of Mice and Men and other scenarios do make a case for a mercy killing. But not without a personal cost. These are very difficult decisions, which is why these ethics puzzles exist. The concept of actually killing somebody is so against our nature that when placed in that situation it's not only an extremely difficult decision to make, but it often changes the survivor's life, and not usually in a good way.

These are the opportunities to really role-play and delve into the characters. It's what makes TTRPG unique. In my campaign this would probably take up a couple of hours of time, if not an entire session while they agonized over the decision. I'd just be a spectator.

As a DM, from my perspective, I think the cleric and paladin are safe in regards to losing their powers. Falling out of grace with your Deity is a path, much like the dark side. They would definitely ask for atonement, and there's a good chance that the event would haunt them for some time, particularly if it was a friend. And this would be something I would consider along with other and future actions, and there might be repercussions based on that.

Killing and raising is something that I consider just as bad. While the spells exist in the world, how many of the characters have actually seen or experienced being raised? Very, very few characters in my campaign have ever been raised from the dead. Revivify, sure. Raise dead or resurrection? Extremely rare. But then so are 9th level or higher characters in my campaign. Sure, the Forgotten Realms has a lot of them overall, but they aren't in every town, and certainly not there to help every random adventurer that comes looking for help. The temples in a large city might have the capability.

If your campaign is a revolving door of death, you might feel differently. But these are still people with a soul, and cheating death is like cheating your God as well. It's showing a disregard for the sanctity of life. And if it were me, I'd be pretty concerned that there might be consequences later on, like in the afterlife.
 

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It most definitely IS for that purpose. Nowhere in the spell does it say that they have to remain there.

Uh, yes it does. Under components it specifically says 'a pinch of salt and one copper piece placed on each of the corpse's eyes, which must remain there for the duration.

It didn't specify that in 3rd edition. Don't know about 4th offhand.

The name of the spell 'gentle repose' implies that they are lying there peacefully for the duration.

Ilbranteloth
 

It's automatically evil because in the D&D cosmology there is an actual 'good' and 'evil' dichotomy. Certain acts are always evil.

When you start to dissect it, it can get a bit messy. Killing an orc? Good. Pretty much based on the concept of them being a 'monster' along with a nod to Tolkien in that they are a corrupt race that can't be anything but evil. Killing a helpless orc? Generally considered OK as well.

Killing with the intent to raise? Generally speaking the cosmos doesn't take into account intent. It's a black and white thing, much like the light and dark side in Star Wars. Anger, jealousy, hatred, all are paths to the dark side. Whether you continue to follow that path is a different question.

Obviously, in the game world itself a given culture will have very different ideas. In your home campaign you're welcome to do what you want.

None of that has been in any PHB or DMG I have ever read. In your home game, you are welcome to do what you want, I agree. But good and evil as overt cosmological dichotomies hasn't been in since 3e, and even then it wasn't as you describe.

But part of what I love about the game is it gives you the opportunity to work through things like this in game. A mercy killing is (and should be) a hard decision to make. In my view, I don't think whether the God will deny the character (paladin or cleric) should even enter into the discussion. That's a metagame discussion, even though there could be in-game repercussions. Nor do I think the DM should weigh in regarding it. The characters should work through the problem and their own point of view. Is turning back an option? Can they abandon their quest and go for help? Can one of them stay and nurse the companion while the other looks for help?

While it's the characters that have to make this decision, it's the players that have to do it for them. Think about your own perspective. If the character is in a coma with no ability to eat or drink, and death is assured in a short time (a few days probably), what do you do? Do you stay with them, comfort them as you can, and provide a proper and sacred death and burial? Or do you kill them and then give them a proper burial? The lifeboat dilemma, Of Mice and Men and other scenarios do make a case for a mercy killing. But not without a personal cost. These are very difficult decisions, which is why these ethics puzzles exist. The concept of actually killing somebody is so against our nature that when placed in that situation it's not only an extremely difficult decision to make, but it often changes the survivor's life, and not usually in a good way.

Which is why I said I don't understand why it is automatically evil. It depends.

These are the opportunities to really role-play and delve into the characters. It's what makes TTRPG unique. In my campaign this would probably take up a couple of hours of time, if not an entire session while they agonized over the decision. I'd just be a spectator.

As a DM, from my perspective, I think the cleric and paladin are safe in regards to losing their powers. Falling out of grace with your Deity is a path, much like the dark side. They would definitely ask for atonement, and there's a good chance that the event would haunt them for some time, particularly if it was a friend. And this would be something I would consider along with other and future actions, and there might be repercussions based on that.

I agree. I feel like OP is really missing an opportunity for good story-telling here and instead trying to bludgeon the players into doing it his way using the alignment rules.

Killing and raising is something that I consider just as bad. While the spells exist in the world, how many of the characters have actually seen or experienced being raised? Very, very few characters in my campaign have ever been raised from the dead. Revivify, sure. Raise dead or resurrection? Extremely rare. But then so are 9th level or higher characters in my campaign. Sure, the Forgotten Realms has a lot of them overall, but they aren't in every town, and certainly not there to help every random adventurer that comes looking for help. The temples in a large city might have the capability.

If your campaign is a revolving door of death, you might feel differently. But these are still people with a soul, and cheating death is like cheating your God as well. It's showing a disregard for the sanctity of life. And if it were me, I'd be pretty concerned that there might be consequences later on, like in the afterlife.

Yeah meta-gaming the raise-dead rules seems really "Order of the Stick" to me. Unless that is what you are going for, I think DMs are within their rights to discourage it.
 

I like how Critical Role did the death of a character. Sure, the spell exists, but he made it hard to pull off. It required special items and lots of role play and checks and they only just barely pulled it off.

In the only instance I recall in a novel where someone was raised, it was still pretty harrowing for them. Dying isn't pleasant.
 

Uh, yes it does. Under components it specifically says 'a pinch of salt and one copper piece placed on each of the corpse's eyes, which must remain there for the duration.

It didn't specify that in 3rd edition. Don't know about 4th offhand.

The name of the spell 'gentle repose' implies that they are lying there peacefully for the duration.
And the name of the spell "expeditious retreat" implies that you must run away when you use it, but that is definitely not the case.

There's no exclusion on attaching the copper pieces to the corpses eyes though.
 

It most definitely IS for that purpose. Nowhere in the spell does it say that they have to remain there.

You are ignoring that a coin that is simply placed on an eye as the spell requires is going to fall off when traveling, thereby ending the spell within a very short period of time. You don't get to glue the coin down or use any other method of affixing it to the victim. So while the spell doesn't stay they have to stay put, the game reality of the situation is that not staying put renders the spell useless.
 

Assuming we agree with your profession of faith, there's no magic spells to bring people back from their alleged real world afterlife.

Yes, but that wasn't what was said. What was said was that the existence of an afterlife in D&D is reason enough to be okay with murdering someone.

In the game, death is a curable condition. The remedy for it is no more rare or uncertain than the one for the character's brain death.

It's only possibly curable.
 

There's no exclusion on attaching the copper pieces to the corpses eyes though.

Yes there is. The spell requires the copper pieces to be placed on the eyes, not attached, not glued, not tied down, etc. The magic is only going to work if you follow what it says.
 

Yes there is. The spell requires the copper pieces to be placed on the eyes, not attached, not glued, not tied down, etc. The magic is only going to work if you follow what it says.

The word "placed" doesn't exclude some form of attachment. For example, put some glue on the copper coin and then place the coin on the eye. The presence of the glue doesn't change the action you are performing which is placing the copper coin. If you place the coins on the eyes and then wrap the head so they can't fall off you still placed the coins as required by the spell.
 

It most definitely IS for that purpose. Nowhere in the spell does it say that they have to remain there.

To be clear:

2nd-level necromancy (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 action

Range: Touch

Components: V, S, M (a pinch of salt and one copper piece placed on each of the corpse’s eyes, which must remain there for the duration)

Duration: 10 days

You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can’t become undead. The spell also effectively extends the time limit on raising the target from the dead, since days spent under the influence o f this spell don’t count against the time limit o f spells such as raise dead.



So yes, the salt and copper have to remain there for the duration of the spell, which is listed as 10 days. However it's as simple as putting cloth over the eyes specifically and wrapping the body (or just the head) in bandages to prevent the components from moving or falling off. But really if your DM is gonna try to play gotcha by saying that this stuff "falls off" and ruins the ritual I would say they need to be introduced with Wheaton's Law. There's already a dead ally, the party is working to help bring that ally back. Knock it off with the bs, you know?
 

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