Killing In The Name Of Advancement

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

While I'm not much of a fan of the song (and I didn't care for the movie it came from), I've been hearing a few commercials lately using the Bonnie Tyler song "I Need A Hero," and it has triggered thoughts on heroes and heroism in gaming.

Photo by Jessica Podraza on Unsplash

We have a problem with being heroic in a number of role-playing games, but most particularly in fantasy games where the ideas of advancement and betterment for characters are built around the concept of killing. In games with alignment systems, this doubles down because alignment becomes a mechanical expression of morality in those games. So, not only does this mean that killing is the method in these games for your character to become better at what they do, killing also becomes the moral choice for dealing with situations.

This is what causes the problem with being heroic, because in my mind being a hero and killing are at cross purposes with each other. I get that there are a number of different ways to define heroes, but for me that definition has been informed by my years of comic book reading. Superman. Captain America. Spider-Man. Yes, each of these characters has had stories where they have had to kill, but the focus of those stories wasn't about the killing, as much as they were about the impact that the killings had upon the characters. I am not saying that heroes are never going to kill, but they do it only as a last resort and their characters aren't defined by the action.

This is at the root of my disconnect with many fantasy role-playing games, and much fantasy fiction. I like characters who are heroes. The fantasy fiction that I interact with tends to come from comic books. Travis Morgan of Warlord. The Nightmaster. Heroes can be complicated, they can be conflicted, but they can still be basically good. For me, that can get lost in translation with games.

I define a lot of games as being heroic that others might not. I think that the underlying struggle of Call of Cthulhu and games like Trail of Cthulhu are inherently heroic. In this style of Lovecraftian gaming, the characters are engaged in a struggle that they will likely not survive, not because they want to be a part of that struggle, but because they feel that they must. I think that is the core of heroic characters: they are motivated to take action, regardless of their personal safety, because they know that the action has to be taken. I know that this is an untraditional interpretation of Lovecraftian games, but it is an interpretation that makes the games easier on those who aren't as much of a fan of horror, or horror gaming.

Games like Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space are at the opposite pole of the games that reward killing. Violence is deemphasized in the game by making it literally the last thing that occurs during a round. Characters are encouraged to resolve conflict through methods other than violence, much like in the television show. Doctor Who, as a television show, can be a weird example of heroism, however, because while the Doctor preaches that violence shouldn't be the answer, and he himself is mostly directly non-violent in his responses, he is also know to surround himself with Companions who can react violently on his behalf (Captain Jack Harkness, I am looking at you, along with the many UNIT soldiers who accompanied him in the old days), and sometimes with his blessing. The Doctor is, at times, moved to violence, and even to killing, but much like with the super-heroic examples that I mentioned above, the stories about him doing this are about the whys of his violent reactions and his killing, and how they impact the character. You could argue that a lot of the stories of the NuWho era are about exploring the impact that the deaths that he was responsible for during the Time War have weighed upon him, and shaped his psyche.

I think that I would have less of a problem with the systems that build advancement upon violence and killing, if there were more of an exploration of how these acts can impact the psychology of the characters, rather than just giving them an additional to hit bonus. If you've been in a fight in real life, you know that even when you win a fight your mind still works you over. Violence is not fun.

Yes, I know the counter argument: people do not want "realism" in their games, they want an escape. This can often boil down to wanting an escape from repercussions of actions, more than anything else.

So, how do you move role-playing games that rely on killing for advancement away from that? When Runequest first came out in 1978, this was one of the things that the game set out to "fix." In Runequest your character gets better by doing things, by using their skills. Yes, this includes combat skills, but you won't get more points for your survival skills because you killed some orcs at one point. When you use a skill in Runequest, you mark it, and then later make a roll to see if it is improved or not. It is a clean and elegant method that allows a character to get better at things by doing.

With games like Fate Core, or earlier examples like Green Ronin's SRD-derived True 20 system, would use a more story-driven method for advancement. The idea behind this is that, as characters move through a campaign, doing things, making rolls for things and, yes, sometimes even killing, that this is what should be the determinations for change to, and advancement of, player characters. In Fate this is called reaching milestones. The characters achieving a milestone in a campaign, which can be as straightforward as defeating an enemy, this should trigger a change in those characters. For example, if a character in a Fate game has an aspect of "Seeking Revenge Against The Sheriff," then defeating that sheriff would be an important milestone for the character in that campaign, and at the very least should trigger being able to change that aspect to something else, perhaps even something tied to the aftermath of that milestone like "I Guess I Am The Sheriff Now."
The sad truth with some fantasy role-playing games is that defeat just isn't enough. In games like the early editions of Dungeons & Dragons, you get less experience for defeating a foe than you would for killing them. That means a slower advancement for your character. In many ways, this is a punishment for taking a less violent course of action for your characters.

I have long held up the Karma system from TSR's classic Marvel Super-Heroes game is not only one of the earliest set of rules that attempted genre simulation, rather than simulation of physics, but it is the single best emulation of the pre-Watchmen, pre-Dark Knight Returns genre of super-hero comics. It punished you outright for killing. If your hero killed someone, they lost all of their Karma. It was worse if you had a super-group with pooled Karma, because you lost all of that pooled Karma as well. However, Karma also made you think about your character's short term successes versus their long term. Karma was a pool of point that were not only spent to improve your character, but you used them as a currency to improve dice rolls for task resolution.

Every time that you spent Karma to succeed at a task, that meant there would be some advancement that you could not take in the future, unless you worked your character harder to earn more Karma to make up for the expense. Add this to the fact that Karma had to be spent before you rolled your dice, and you could be making a literal crap shoot for your character.

However, this worked for Marvel Super-Heroes for a couple of reasons. First, comic book super-heroes really don't change a lot in comics. And when they do change, the changes are often rolled back the next time there is a new creative team on a book. Back in the 60s and 70s, when people other than Stan Lee began writing books at Marvel Comics he would refer to this as the "illusion of change." The idea was that you give just enough change to a character to suggest growth, but not so much change that readers can no longer recognize the core elements of a character. This is the basis of the assumption that, with comics, no matter how much things might change in the short term, sooner or later everything will go back to more or less of a reset point.

Secondly, Karma enforces heroic action. A part of heroic action, much like I mentioned above when talking about heroism in Lovecraftian games, is sacrifice. Karma is a sacrificial element of your character's heroism in the Marvel Super-Heroes game. You spend Karma before a dice roll, which means that you don't even know if you will need it or not, but the action that your character is attempting is so important that you are willing to make the sacrifice. You have to balance short term success against long term goals. You might even be able to argue that the Sanity system in Call of Cthulhu is a similar system of sacrifice to Karma. You sacrifice your character's sanity in order to attempt to drive Chthonic creatures away and "save" the world, even if it is only for the short term.

Unfortunately, the shift in sensibilities in comics that came not long after the Marvel Super-Heroes game came out made these ideas seem corny to a lot of people. Not for me, because even though I am a bigger fan of DC Comics than Marvel Comics, the heroism of the game really appealed to me (and echoes of it still do). It isn't coincidence that the games that drew me away from games like Dungeons & Dragons were Marvel Super-Heroes and Call of Cthulhu. They both had approaches that appealed to my desire for heroism, plus comics and horror fiction were (and still are) the media that I consume the most.

The nice thing about having so many different types of role-playing games available is that everyone can find the games that suit their agenda for playing games. None of these approaches are better than the others, but they can help us to find the ways to have more effective approach to what we want out of gaming. On some levels, even as a kid, I was unsatisfied with role-playing, but as more games started coming out I realized that it wasn't the activity itself that was causing the difficulty but that the approach of the game we were playing didn't suit what I wanted out of RPGs. That was easily fixed once I was able to find games that did better suit me, and I am still playing role-playing games after almost 40 years as a gamer.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
In OD&D, Basic, and 1E, you gained far more experience for treasure than for killing monsters.
Really, really depended on whether your DM tended more towards Monty Haul or Killer. Maybe there'd be a lot of treasure laying around, maybe there'd be a lot of monsters out for your blood. Picking up the treasure or killing the monster got you exp, which one you got more depended on which one there /was/ more of.
2E replaced this with methods of gaining xp for non-combat exploits (except fighter types), but it moved the game much more into killing for xp. IME 3E and 4E were almost entirely about killing for advancement, with maybe some quest or role-playing xp thrown in for variety.
3e had the same sort of vague/arbitrary non-combat xp as 2e, calling them 'story awards,' I think it was, maybe 'quest?'
4e was unique in having an actual (even, a few updates later, functional!) system for creating level-appropriate non-combat challenges that were worth as much exp as combat encounters. 5e, sadly, didn't retain anything of the sort, even as an option, though it could be adapted - BA at least leaves everyone able to contribute in such a scheme.


One thing I would however like is more guidance or recommendations about experience for noncombat encounters or combat avoided. If something is guarded by X creatures and the party can still get to it without a fight, I think experience is still warranted.
Of course Gygax had ONE solution which is no longer popular. Get that gold!
Heh. Yeah, if there's a fixed economy (however 'gold rush') gp = xp can work. 5e didn't go for that, though you always could. Heck, just peg 1 exp = 1 gp, don't give exp for monsters, do place monsters with treasure, on average, equal to their exp value. The exp budget becomes a gp budget. Seems simple enough at first glance. (Hey, you could only give exp for treasure 'wasted' living it up or helping out a sympathetic NPC or that you lose somehow, not on treasure spent to buy better gear or conduct spell research or the like.)

If you kill the monster but don't find the treasure, too bad. If you steal the treasure without having to fight the monster, good job.

Because, y'know, I'm sure stealing for advancement has no ethical implications...
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Slaying and vanquishing isn't much better than killing. And honestly, I don't like black&white moral games where there are "people" who are, by definition, evil

Well that's fair, but we're talking about D&D where the default for the game is that alignment is a real thing in that game world, and goblins are in fact evil by definition. They commit horrible atrocities on a daily basis, as not only part of their culture, but as part of their religion and arguably as part of their genetics (given fantasy themes about Deities who create and influence their creations).

You can play in a setting where you change those defaults, but we're talking about the general game. And frankly, I think there are probably better rules systems than D&D for a default-non-violent setting to function better.

The question raised by the OP is whether it's "a problem" for the default setting to assume evil alignments as part of groups of creatures, and killing those creatures as a default manner of dealing with them. And I argue that, in a war setting, yes it's OK and not a problem and can be heroic to save innocent people by killing irredeemably evil creatures who commit horrible atrocities and murders on the innocent as a routine part of their culture and religion and civilization.
 

Slaying and vanquishing isn't much better than killing. And honestly, I don't like black&white moral games where there are "people" who are, by definition, evil, and free to kill. Goblins are intelligent (monstrous) humanoids capable of emotions and conscious thoughts. (Outsiders are on a different level though)
If you want there to be moral conflicts, then you're more than welcome to say that goblins are just people like anyone else, and killing a goblin is sad because you should have been able to find another way.

Personally, I don't want to worry about that sort of thing - I can just use human villains if I want there to be a moral conflict - and so goblins at my table are a type of demon. It's way easier, the game moves more quickly, and there's not nearly as much values dissonance between the player and the character.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Call of Cthulhu doesn't really expect any sane investigator to have any question in their mind regarding whether destroying mythos creatures is fundamentally good.

"Poor devils! After all, they were not evil things of their kind. They were the men of another age and another order of being. Nature had played a hellish jest on them—as it will on any others that human madness, callousness, or cruelty may hereafter drag up in that hideously dead or sleeping polar waste—and this was their tragic homecoming.

They had not been even savages—for what indeed had they done? That awful awakening in the cold of an unknown epoch—perhaps an attack by the furry, frantically barking quadrupeds, and a dazed defence against them and the equally frantic white simians with the queer wrappings and paraphernalia . . . poor Lake, poor Gedney . . . and poor Old Ones! Scientists to the last—what had they done that we would not have done in their place? God, what intelligence and persistence! What a facing of the incredible, just as those carven kinsmen and forbears had faced things only a little less incredible! Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star-spawn—whatever they had been, they were men!"​
 

Thats why I like Traveller. You already start in your prime (or even past it) and hardly advance at all except through gaining better equipment.
Or by training, or by buying influence, or by biologically enhancing oneself through augmentation or drugs. All purchases that can be made through earning Credits.
 

I think it's worth remembering that hero (ἥρως) was originally a Homeric Greek word for someone who fought during the Trojan War.

Greek heroes were cruel, lustful, arrogant, violent, selfish narcissists with superhuman powers who were either blessed by the gods, cursed by them, or both. Strength, bravery, might in arms, and esprit de corps form the moral compass of a hero.

Just like D&D.
 
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TheSword

Legend
I favour milestone xp so really don’t dwell on the conundrum. My milestones are always tied to achievements though rather than deaths. Though a creatures death may result in the milestone of making an area safe being achieved.

I’ve never liked the term murderhobo. It isn’t murder to act in self defense. If the goblins are attacking villagers and they attack the PCs when they come to stop them then that is fair enough.

You can be heroic when fighting, it isn’t all about killing though that can be part of it. Defending the helpless, returning kidnappees, making an area safe, etc all are heroic but may result in a death or two. Remember in most cases PCs are either acting on behalf of the state or in a lawless wilderness where people rely on quick punishment. There’s nothing immoral about.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Just like D&D.
It's not though. The Iliad is about two contending groups of humans (and demigods) - the Greeks and the Trojans - who are equally heroic in your sense of the word.

The conflict in D&D is different. It's between a group of humans/demihumans that tend towards (but are not exclusively of) good alignment, and a wide range of beings, mostly monsters, who are almost entirely of evil alignment. The most typical foes are probably 'savage humanoids', such as orcs and goblins.

We can reasonably question the claim D&D makes about alignment and ask whether the adventurers are indeed good, and whether the monsters are evil, but my point is that the situations the Iliad and D&D present us with are quite different.
 
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Arilyn

Hero
But roleplaying and using dice to model other things is more realistic? If its Zelda (which is damn fun) someone else's drama is about as real as a Soap Opera. Not seeing why one would be "real" and the other silly. I do not want the true reality of war--I want to model and surpass! fictional adventures that I enjoy.

I genuinely am happy there are choices but being on a moral high horse about things that started the whole roleplaying game phenomenon strikes me as odd and maybe too serious for what many are looking for.

My point is that the violence being so abstract makes games like DnD actually less violent in a way. It's very clean and sanitized like Zelda, of which I too am a fan. Kids have access to 5e, and its not raising alarm bells. Fighting and killing is not treated at all realistically, and is therefore less immediate and bloody. Thus my comment about weapons that don't cause bleeding, and poking fun at "hard-core" players.

And of course DnD is silly. But it's harmless fun, because the violence is pretty much treated like kids playing cops and robbers, or a board game where pieces are just removed. It's not graphic as a default.
This makes it a good choice for high adventure stories, and most of the time the silliness slides into the background anyway. No moral high horse.

It's still nice having less killing alternatives, however.
 

Eirikrautha

First Post
First of all, this article reads as if the definition of "hero" is something that is, if not universally agreed upon, concrete enough that it doesn't need to be mentioned. That is the primary flaw that creates the false tension addressed by the rest of the article.

The fact is that the term hero, as used in a modern context, can most accurately be defined as "someone who reflects the dominant cultural values (or my cultural values, depending on the context)." For example, most fantasy RPGs privilege violence as heroic action because of the influence of Tolkien, who himself was reflecting the Anglo-Saxon values system of the stories he loved (and knew well). Beowulf was not a "hero" for saving Hrothgar; he was a hero for killing Grendel. The idea of the "sacrificial" hero is primarily a construct of Christianity in the Western world. The hero who sacrifices himself for others would be unrecognizable outside of a cultural values system that did not center on the sacrifice of notable cultural characters. Many cultures would consider such actions/behavior stupid. To stretch this concept to an extreme, there are extant cultures today for whom "heroism" can be defined as blowing up women and children in order to demoralize your "enemy."

What you are actually saying in your article is that, whether you are aware of it or not, the dominant Judeo-Christian concept of sacrifice is the basis for your definition of hero, so you find fantasy games that express different cultural values systems less heroic. That is totally your prerogative. I certainly hope you find systems and settings to satisfy your values system!

But "killing" is not a "problem" in heroic RPGs, especially when you understand that part of the enjoyment for some of us is roleplaying those different cultural values, ones that are out of place in the modern world...
 
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