Killing the sacred cow: playing D&D with only 4 abilities instead of 6. And returning to 3 saves instead of 6.

[Satyrn]

You can learn languages and tools through downtime training, while skills are limited to races, classes, and feats. But there's nothing that implies one skill equals two tools. In fact, the Skilled feat has you pick skills or tools on an even basis.

okay. I wasn't implying that one skill equals two tools, either.

I was going with the customizing background guidelines that equate tools with languages, and skills as separate. I maybe should have said that skills are more distinct, rather than stronger.

Although it's exactly because tools can be learned during downtime that it's a clearly stronger choice to take skills over tools at all opportunities (powergaming-wise, at least).





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[Zardnaar]

3 saves instead of 6 is a good idea IMHO, happy with the 6 abilities.

The 1999 AD&D intro set had 1 save I kind of liked that.

 

[Satyrn]

How would you assign class saving throws?

Fighter: Strength, ??
Cleric: Willpower, ??
Rogue: Dexterity, Cunning
Wizard: Cunning, Willpower

Just looking at the 4 classic classes, Rogue and Wizard seem fairly obvious but I'm not so sure about Fighter and Cleric. On the other hand, I could see giving each class only a single set proficiency saving throw in this system and then allowing the player to choose a second.

There isn't a cunning save under the proposed system. A character probably only needs one proficient save (except for the monk, maybe, but that's because I'm thinking of 3e's legacy)

 

[Horwath]

How would you assign class saving throws?

Fighter: Strength, ??
Cleric: Willpower, ??
Rogue: Dexterity, Cunning
Wizard: Cunning, Willpower

Just looking at the 4 classic classes, Rogue and Wizard seem fairly obvious but I'm not so sure about Fighter and Cleric. On the other hand, I could see giving each class only a single set proficiency saving throw in this system and then allowing the player to choose a second.

single save per class, same as current classes "strong" save.

Strength: fighter, barbarian,

Dexterity: Rogue, ranger, monk, bard,

Willpower: Cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, wizard, warlock,

Cunning: no spells target cunning so no saves proficiencies.

Resilient feat would add one prificiency without ability bonus.

 

[Sunseeker]

Or even one? "Awesomeness". Settle once and for all whether or not your character is better than your friend's!

At that point really why even have stats at all? We could just make D&D into one of those games that doesn't even use dice.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

At that point really why even have stats at all? We could just make D&D into one of those games that doesn't even use dice.

Why even have a game? We could just sit in our basements for four to six hours drinking and eating pretzels with friends.

 

[Sunseeker]

Why even have a game? We could just sit in our basements for four to six hours drinking and eating pretzels with friends.

Sounds like a date to me. My place or yours? *wink*

In reality though, I don't think 6 stats are too many or too few, I just think noone has ever bothered to balance them. The game basically relies on Dex and Int, everything else is essentially a dump stat at this point. Dex is both evasion and armor. It is statistically superior to meat. Intelligence is skills and knowledge, which will get you further than wisdom or charisma any day.

I'm playing 3.5 and FFG Star Wars right now and both use a 6-stat system. Though FFG Star Wars has combined Str and Con into Brawn, they added the "agility" of mental stats: Cunning. The biggest difference I've found is that it reads like FFG has made a much more resounding effort to include non-combat roles as viable options. To this end, almost every stat has 3 skills. Int gets several more, but typically any given class only gets a few of them, there is no "Lore Bard" or "Knowledge Cleric" who knows everything about everything.

Before D&D drops the 6-stat system, I'd like to see them do away with the "-10, divide by 2" system. Next up, they really need to rebalance the skills that use the stats in question. Either provide options like bringing back Endurance or allow for more customization like letting me use Str or Con for Athletics or letting me use Wis or Cha for my Will saves. If D&D does drop the number of stats is has (which it won't but for a thought exercise, lets go with it) it would be better off moving to a 3-stat system. "Brawn" for all the "RAWR ME STRONG!" sort of stuff covering both physical strength and physical meat. "Aptitude/Skill" for both physical and mental agility (Agi & Int) and "Personality" for Wis & Cha.

There's nothing wrong with a 6-Stat system. D&Ds problem is just that they're not making any real effort to balance things out to make less useful stats more useful and too-useful stats less useful. But that's what people want and frankly I think we'd get a reaction to any D&D that tried to do so much like we got to 4E; people expect super-sneaks and CoDZilla from D&D. A D&D that doesn't provide that to them won't be seen as D&D.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Sounds like a date to me. My place or yours? *wink*

No, man, I'm already on the next level. I don't even have a basement.

 

[Sunseeker]

No, man, I'm already on the next level. I don't even have a basement.

And suddenly, you are now this to me:

 

[MoonSong]

I don't like constitution because no one is willing to have it be low. I keep seeing 12s and 14s, then one 16. It's never someone's highest stat, and never someone's lowest stat.


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In the game I'm running, I told my players "Don't roll, don't use point buy. Honestly choose the scores that best fit your character concept." I still got plenty of 14s in Con... even for the scrawny scholar. Everybody is so afraid of having less HP...