Killing the sacred cow: playing D&D with only 4 abilities instead of 6. And returning to 3 saves instead of 6.

[Horwath]

In the game I'm running, I told my players "Don't roll, don't use point buy. Honestly choose the scores that best fit your character concept." I still got plenty of 14s in Con... even for the scrawny scholar. Everybody is so afraid of having less HP...

That is because 14 con is somewhat mandatory.

I currently play 4th level high elven monk with 12 con.

I have 27HP and AC 15. Guess who gets into "red" HP after 1st swing at it?

Problem of constitution is that is 100% passive score. It is just extra slab of HP you get and nothing else.

 

[Caliburn101]

Better to leave them as they are and just adjust saves to a two-stat formula on the following scale of both stats added together;

16 or less: -2
17-19: -1
20-23: +0
24-26: +1
27-28: +2
29-32: +3
33-36: +4
37-40: +5 etc.

Willpower Save (Wis & Cha)
Fortitude Save (Str & Con)
Reflex Save (Dex & Int)

The same can be done for Skills as well - many make more sense when combined - Athletics (Str & Dex); Perception (Wis & Int); Sleight of Hand (Dex & Int), and some can be simply doubled up where more suitable - such as History (Int & Int).

It also works better for weapons and initiative - more common-sensical;

Melee Attacks (Str & Dex)
Ranged Attacks and Initiative (Dex & Wis)

Hit Points make more sense too;

HP Bonus (Str & Con)

Spell DC's and attack bonuses as well...

Wizard and Warlock (Int & Cha)
Sorcerer (Cha & Wis)
Cleric and Druid (Wis & Int)

This way of doing things makes all classes MAD and reduces dump stat allocation. It also makes more sense of monsters CRs - which are weak against optimised characters using the core rule system as is.

I am going to work on this and come up with a complete alternative core system I think - I want to rework stuff anyway for making d20 work well with S&S and more gritty higher fantasy game worlds - mixing it up with modified versions of the current alternative HP and Healing rule options available.

 

[Horwath]

Better to leave them as they are and just adjust saves to a two-stat formula on the following scale of both stats added together;

16 or less: -2
17-19: -1
20-23: +0
24-26: +1
27-28: +2
29-32: +3
33-36: +4
37-40: +5 etc.

Willpower Save (Wis & Cha)
Fortitude Save (Str & Con)
Reflex Save (Dex & Int)

The same can be done for Skills as well - many make more sense when combined - Athletics (Str & Dex); Perception (Wis & Int); Sleight of Hand (Dex & Int), and some can be simply doubled up where more suitable - such as History (Int & Int).

It also works better for weapons and initiative - more common-sensical;

Melee Attacks (Str & Dex)
Ranged Attacks and Initiative (Dex & Wis)

Hit Points make more sense too;

HP Bonus (Str & Con)

Spell DC's and attack bonuses as well...

Wizard and Warlock (Int & Cha)
Sorcerer (Cha & Wis)
Cleric and Druid (Wis & Int)

This way of doing things makes all classes MAD and reduces dump stat allocation. It also makes more sense of monsters CRs - which are weak against optimised characters using the core rule system as is.

I am going to work on this and come up with a complete alternative core system I think - I want to rework stuff anyway for making d20 work well with S&S and more gritty higher fantasy game worlds - mixing it up with modified versions of the current alternative HP and Healing rule options available.

I had the same idea;

casting stats could also be

Wizard/druid/ranger: int+wis
Sorcerer: cha+con
Cleric/paladin;wis+cha
Warlock/bard: int+cha,

But I would rather see less stats with more impact.

 

[Staccat0]

See, I think we're one short. Perception should be an ability score and a save (notice traps, detect poison). It should be your combat mod with ranged weapons too.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Sounds like a lean towards a skill based system like Runequest/Call of Cthulhu.

Problem em is a lot of unpicking of especially spells, rewriting the MM...big job.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I actually like the Approach the pc game Pillars of Eternity took. Each ability score has more bearing on the player regardless of class. It would probably be a bear to design in a tabletop game since you down't have a program doing on the fly calculations for you, but it does make for many varied builds even within the same class.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Horwath]

Sounds like a lean towards a skill based system like Runequest/Call of Cthulhu.

Problem em is a lot of unpicking of especially spells, rewriting the MM...big job.

You can use current MM, except important NPCs, but you build them also from scrach so no harm there.

 

[Imaculata]

I actually like the Approach the pc game Pillars of Eternity took. Each ability score has more bearing on the player regardless of class. It would probably be a bear to design in a tabletop game since you down't have a program doing on the fly calculations for you, but it does make for many varied builds even within the same class.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part.

I agree. It's a shame that D&D has a habit of having every class focus on a couple of abilities specifically, rather than encouraging the use of all abilities for all classes. There's very little reason for example to build a sorcerer with a high strength, and I wish there was, because it would open up way more build variety.

 

[Horwath]

I agree. It's a shame that D&D has a habit of having every class focus on a couple of abilities specifically, rather than encouraging the use of all abilities for all classes. There's very little reason for example to build a sorcerer with a high strength, and I wish there was, because it would open up way more build variety.

when in 4E, dragon sorcerers gained bonus spell damage from strength in addition from charisma, and chaos sorcerers got the same bonus from dexterity.

But if the HP is tied to strength then sorcerers with their d6 HDs cant afford to have 8 str.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

See, I think we're one short. Perception should be an ability score and a save (notice traps, detect poison). It should be your combat mod with ranged weapons too.

I've thought the same thing, except then the "willpower" elements of Wisdom can just be folded into Charisma.