Kinda changing rules without telling players.

[Joseph Elric Smith]

I too use a website. There all of the house rules are posted that the characters would know about or could affect them.

The only ones that are not there are the ones their characters won't know about and the players will only notice if they have read the DMG or MM.

If that works for you and your group fine, but it seems to me that there is a problem. Of course in our group since every one but two of the people in the group also game master either for this group or others, . We all know the material pretty well and if we don't; and make errors the other can help set things right. It works for us but YMMV
ken

 

[blackshirt5]

Calvinball was calvinball because the rules continually changed. One minute you played one way and the next minute it was different.

Are you suggesting that I am changing the rules in my campaign continually so that what is true one day for my players is false the next day?

I think JES and Bran Blackbyrd said what I was trying to say pretty well, so I'm just gonna affirm that that's what I was trying to say rather than restate it.

Of course I'm sure that in your mind that makes me a meta-gamer who can't separate Player and Character knowledge to save my life. But go ahead and keep on thinking that. I'm enjoying the spectacle.

 

[S'mon]

Because I don't care to, or feel I have any right to, enforce what a player does outside of my dining room. Some players are gonna have the DMG. Some aren't. Some players might very well be DMs in other games (I play in games other than the one I DM in, as well). They can go online and access the SRD all they want. I can't control this, and it's, IMHO, wrong of me to try. It's not my buisness. It only becomes my buisness when they use that knowledge at my table. So I enforcer player/character knowledge seperation with XP penalties, changing a monsters stats, etc, if I must.

But I *never* change a basic ground rule of how things work without telling my players.

I don't think we're that far apart - some of my players have the PHB & DMG pretty much memorised, however luckily they're the kind of excellent players (thinking especially of Tallarn here) who tell _other_ players "Remember casting that spell costs you 500XP! No, you can't make that item, you don't have the prerequisites!",so I really don't mind.
OTOH I have players who are relative newbies, and they're just as good players.
These players wouldn't dream of complaining if I changed lycanthrope DR without telling them, I hope.

OTOH I have seen plenty of players in the past who are incapable of separating PC & player knowlege, and they would be much more likely to complain than the good players, so I take DocM's point also.

Finally, a change to Lycanthrope DR really ISN'T imo "a basic ground rule of how things work" - it's not 'Dungeons & Lycanthropes' you know...

 

[S'mon]

In my campaign world, legends, folk tales, and rountine teaching about survival tips against creatures that exist and plague people for centuries and millenia are not uncommon.

Why would there be legends about silver working against werewolves and not about magic when magic, including spells works just fine?

Legends can be wrong, you know. And not all campaign worlds have 21st-century levels of exotic knowledge. Especially not D&D-nerd levels of knowledge which I suspect greatly exceed those of the general populace when it comes to vampires, mummies, werewolves et al, whether from D&D, books, or movies.

IMC the average citizen or low-level fighter has probably heard of werewolves, and has a vague notion they're linked to silver & the phases of the moon. They probably have never heard of wererats as such. If they saw a wererat most would assume it was a Chaos Beastman of rattish form. Some have heard of ratmen (basically SL's Slitheren), which for most intents and purposes look identical to wererats. Only some sages and those few people likely to actually come across wererats, like the sewer bargees of the metropolis Imarr, would know much about them - what forms they have, how they can spread lycanthropy, how best to kill them.

I don't explain all that to the players (who had a big fight in the sewers of Imarr with wererats last Sunday, btw!), what they do know is that it's a low-fantasy world and fairly information poor. That seems to be enough - when they want information, they go looking for it (like they did before they faced the wererats), they don't assume their 9th-12th level PCs know everything already.

 

[Murrdox]

Doc, I'd just like to point out that you're wrong when you say that Magic Weapon doesn't bypass DR because it isn't written in the spell description... it IS there. Here's part of the spell description copied from the SRD:

Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Notice the ENHANCEMENT BONUS part?

Now, look at this table from the SRD, which lists what type of things bypass various types of DR.

Table: Damage Reduction Rankings
Power Rank Weapon Type
----- ---- -----------
Best +5 enhancement bonus
2nd best +4 enhancement bonus
3rd best +3 enhancement bonus
4th best +2 enhancement bonus
5th best +1 enhancement bonus
Weakest Silver, mithral, or other special material

Notice that the table specifically specifies that an enhancement bonus defeats various types of DR. If Magic Weapon didn't defeat DR, it would grant a different kind of bonus to attack and damage, such as a morale bonus, like "Bless". However, since it grants an enhancement bonus, it bypasses DR. It doesn't have to SPECIFY that in the spell description - that's just redundant information.

I love beating dead horses.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Doc, I'd just like to point out that you're wrong when you say that Magic Weapon doesn't bypass DR because it isn't written in the spell description... it IS there. Here's part of the spell description copied from the SRD:

Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Notice the ENHANCEMENT BONUS part?

Now, look at this table from the SRD, which lists what type of things bypass various types of DR.

Table: Damage Reduction Rankings
Power Rank Weapon Type
----- ---- -----------
Best +5 enhancement bonus
2nd best +4 enhancement bonus
3rd best +3 enhancement bonus
4th best +2 enhancement bonus
5th best +1 enhancement bonus
Weakest Silver, mithral, or other special material

Notice that the table specifically specifies that an enhancement bonus defeats various types of DR. If Magic Weapon didn't defeat DR, it would grant a different kind of bonus to attack and damage, such as a morale bonus, like "Bless". However, since it grants an enhancement bonus, it bypasses DR. It doesn't have to SPECIFY that in the spell description - that's just redundant information.

I love beating dead horses.

Ok, great genius.

Now get on your dead horse and ride over here and tell me on what page of the PLAYERS HANDBOOK this information sits on.

The SRD mixes player and DM information. You are extrapolating the word "enhancement" by pulling in information from the DMG.

Nice try though. Keep beating that horse.

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Legends can be wrong, you know.

yes i know that quite well. Hence i did not say that the information should always be accurate, complete and truthful.

Its amazing to me that the only levels which the "pcs are uninformed ingoramuses crowd seems able to see are total ignorance and total accurate knowledge.

However, that said, we are NOT talking about legends here. They are legends in our world because they are not HERE. They have not been seen in thousdands of years.

In my campaign world, they exist. They fed on a caravan last week. The ate uncle billy before the locals hired a cleric and his buddies to come in.

In my campaign world, the church seels holy water at cost. Now, they do not get the local peasants to cough up 25 gold because they tell them that "its good for your hair" but rather they get them to cough up the money for "remember those undead that showed up last month? This will help keep them at bay or even hurt them" and so on.

For a creature that only exists in legends in my campaign worlds, the PCs will have to wade through a lot of material and rumors and such to get good information.

For the "mundane" threats in a DnD world such as were-varmints and trolls... there is much more readily available information. One good source fir it is the various good churches who have every reason to on an institutional basis SHARE this knowledge.

If, in your DND campaign world, wererats are legendary creatures not seen in decades or even centuries... then it makes perfect sense for the information on them to be scarce and highly inaccurate.

And not all campaign worlds have 21st-century levels of exotic knowledge. Especially not D&D-nerd levels of knowledge which I suspect greatly exceed those of the general populace when it comes to vampires, mummies, werewolves et al, whether from D&D, books, or movies.

I would tend to agree. In DND campaign worlds where these are real threats, where a erewolf is an actual thing that has been around and active for generations, that may well have been preying on our people as recently as last week, then i expect MORE info, not less.

Instead of trying to think of it as how much info modern people have on werewolves, think of it as how much info they have on simple first aid, on fire safety, on how to keep common use but dangerous chemicals and bleaches safely handled and stored, and the like. Those are every bit as much REAL THREATS as DND WEREWOLVES are with that world. Whether you learned stop-drop-roll from your church, your parents, your school teachers or not is irrelevent... as a REAL THREAT the adults did their best to teach you the right way to deal with it. They teach you to not talk to strengers, to shout if someone touches you inappropriately and to duck-and-cover in case of a nuclear blast.

If were wolves prowled our streets, they would be teaching you about silver and wolvesbane too.

IMC the average citizen or low-level fighter has probably heard of werewolves, and has a vague notion they're linked to silver & the phases of the moon. They probably have never heard of wererats as such. If they saw a wererat most would assume it was a Chaos Beastman of rattish form.

It sounds like you have defined for your world that werewolves are a rare occurance and that common DND notions like "the pack of werewolf brigands preying on caravans" and the like would be a non-entity. You sound like you are having werewolves as an exceptional threat, not like your orc or troll or even giants which are fairly commplace.

You seem to have made wererats even more mythical to the point of being not even known much.

OK, thats fine. But when i look through DND modules and read accounts of DND worlds events like greyhawks stuff, it seems obvious to me that were-varmints are just as much a part of things as elves and dwarves (though in smaller groups) and that the notion of "mans turns into man-beast" would not be a wondrous or rare thing at all.

the common campaign of DND is a highly mystical environment where medusas lead thieves guilds and werewolves form brigand groups to raid caravans.

If you are running a game thats not in that mode, and you expect or susect your players are not aware of that change, it should behoove you to explain that to them ahead of time so they can roleplay accordingly.

They cannot ROLEPLAY well the changes you don't tell them about?

 

[S'mon]

Instead of trying to think of it as how much info modern people have on werewolves, think of it as how much info they have on simple first aid, on fire safety, on how to keep common use but dangerous chemicals and bleaches safely handled and stored, and the like. Those are every bit as much REAL THREATS as DND WEREWOLVES are with that world. Whether you learned stop-drop-roll from your church, your parents, your school teachers or not is irrelevent... as a REAL THREAT the adults did their best to teach you the right way to deal with it. They teach you to not talk to strengers, to shout if someone touches you inappropriately and to duck-and-cover in case of a nuclear blast.

If were wolves prowled our streets, they would be teaching you about silver and wolvesbane too.

It sounds like you have defined for your world that werewolves are a rare occurance and that common DND notions like "the pack of werewolf brigands preying on caravans" and the like would be a non-entity. You sound like you are having werewolves as an exceptional threat, not like your orc or troll or even giants which are fairly commplace.

You seem to have made wererats even more mythical to the point of being not even known much.

OK, thats fine. But when i look through DND modules and read accounts of DND worlds events like greyhawks stuff, it seems obvious to me that were-varmints are just as much a part of things as elves and dwarves (though in smaller groups) and that the notion of "mans turns into man-beast" would not be a wondrous or rare thing at all.

the common campaign of DND is a highly mystical environment where medusas lead thieves guilds and werewolves form brigand groups to raid caravans.

If you are running a game thats not in that mode, and you expect or susect your players are not aware of that change, it should behoove you to explain that to them ahead of time so they can roleplay accordingly.

They cannot ROLEPLAY well the changes you don't tell them about? [/B][/QUOTE]

I do try to tell them about my world - incidentally in my world halflings are rarer (and more mythical) than wererats, they're lumped in with the rest of the faerie races. Elves are nearly extinct, dwarves and gnomes are rare - few people ever see one - but generally known to exist.

IMC werewolves are generally about as common as they are in European mythology, ie they turn up now and then but not on the routine basis you seem to describe. Generally the world is closer to real-world myth & fable than to standard 3e norms, I guess. I started creating it in 1986 so Monte Cook's high-magic approach in 3e came too late to influence its development.

Finally: in the UK we are NOT taught (at least I wasn't) stop drop & roll, the Heimlich maneuever, basic first aid, screaming when touched, duck & cover, all those wonderful things that are part of an American child's education (apparently). I did learn basic first aid, but only when I joined the Territorial Army Reserve aged circa 25! "Common knowledge" varies a lot by area, in the real world and presumably in most fantasy worlds. The average American 16-year-old can drive a car. In the UK it'd be illegal for them to drive a car. Where my American wife went to school, all the children were taught gun safety, guns being part of everday life in rural Tennessee. Not in Belfast where I grew up - not like that, anyway...

My point being that if wererats are very rare in Area X (as DocM SPECIFICALLY SAID was the case in his game), the people in Area X aren't likely to waste much time educating their young adventurers about them. If they're common (as in your game?), it'll be different.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Finally: in the UK we are NOT taught...duck & cover...

These days it's "duct (tape) & cover (the windows)." But I digress.

This thread has given me a great idea: when 3.5 comes out I'm going to forbid my players from buying anything but the revised Player's Handbook. That'll put a stop to their cheating and whining.

 

[jasper]

Hmm the characters should know the monsters they face after all they grew up in the world of icky nasties.

Ok how about all dragons are giant lizards with wings and breath weapon. DC 10.
The colored dragons are evil DC 15. Etc
But this puts a some monsters who are not dragons as dragons. So be.

Since some are saying we know how to stake vamps due to buffy etc.
How about this
Football is game played with eleven members on each side. The ball is brown and a sphereoid. The players can pitch the ball or pick up the ball and run it to the opposite sides goal line.
No football is game played with a black and white round ball. You can not handle the ball and must kick thru a net.
Since everyone grew up in the same world WHAT is the game of football?
Wait a minute in the Kingdom of U.S.A Football is the first game. In the kingdom of England it is the other. In one kingdom crickets are bugs and in the other it is game.

When is megagaming the monsters?
Hmm.
Ex 1. Megagamer 1 opens the door and see a huge anteater type creature. He with his +3 shield, +2 sword, +3 plate runs to the back of the party. (Strange the tank’s SOP is to kill everything in the room) Megagamer 2 (the wizard) waits until the Disenchanter destroys the second fighter’s +1 shield before running away.
Hold a moment. Some say their character would have read" EGG’s Monsters Are Among Us and How to Cook Them and What Parts are for Potions". It is possible BUT. It was the first time in my campaign I ever used the creature! And the characters had started at first level.
Ex. 2 Megagamer 1 kicks open the door and sees a rust monster of a strange color. Megagamer 1 runs away. Megagamer 2 strikes it with his Staff of Striking. BOTH cry foul when the rust monster destroys the staff. After all it is not fair for a DM to change a dischanter to look at a rust monster because that is what the monster manual says.

Just because some gamers have no life and can tell what pages, what edition, what stats, of monster does not mean Bucky The Wonder Paladin from the Sahara Desert knows white dragons breath cold and are the weakest of dragonkind.

And I have discover the players who bitch and moan the worst when I tell them they can’t look up the monster manual even if their own copy are some of the worse CHEATERS at the table.

Gothmog the idea that a player should own read and memorize all the rules books is not new. I tripped across this in my first gaming group. That was before Reagan was elected. I too disallow people from reading books at the table their character don’t need. In old game groups I was occasionally blown off. Gee Gary kept on wondering how come most monsters did almost max damage to his characters. Could and would be me the DM giving him a penalty.
…IME, players who do use meta knowledge routinely are usually very insecure people who MUST show that they have some degree of power in all situations, and cannot stand it when they fail… bravo Vivat Vivat Vivat

megagaming ex. Group has a SOP. I tell the thieves when they need to roll to speed search and disable traps. Last game thief roll badly. Then player knowing a trap was about to toast him tried to open the chest with a dagger. I told him no. He replied he just wanted to do it. Three other players jumped him and said there was no way for the thief to know a trap was there. Just because one the dm told you to roll and two you know you failed means your thief discovered no traps so why is it? You are being extra careful this time. Open the beep chest, if you die we will raise you. The player pouted and opened the chest.

Petrosian.. that rakshasas need blessed bolts… I never hear of rakshasas until I started playing D&D and still have trouble swallowing the idea that a wizard who has spend all his life in England and on his first and only trip to India knows the exact spell to kill the monster the first day he off the boat.

Bran Blackbyrd yes knowing that Tony the Tiger is evil and Cheesy the Cleric goes from casting bless on the group to bless on the shotgun is megagaming. I do believe.

yes some DM love to stack the bodies higher and deeper and some players wish they could go through the Temple of Elemental Evil with out a losing 1 hit pt. The true game lies in between.