Kinda changing rules without telling players.

[Tsyr]

Tsyr,

How would you deal with this?

You put a rust monster in a room in your dungeon. The party enters the room and the party barbarian who always charges forward to hack to pieces every foe suddenly hangs back and asks the party archer and mage to deal with the monster.

Seeing this and having expected it you altered the rust monster in advance to give it longer feelers for a 10' or 15' reach.

Boom the barbarian loses his armor and shield before the party can kill it.

So when the barbarians player starts to whine that a rust monster doesnt have reach is it you being unfair or the player usign meta-knowledge and whining?

Actualy, I'd be fine with that... In fact, it's something I might do, if I used rust monsters at all (A silly beast, IMHO)... and if you don't understand why, you missed what I've said two or three times now, but I'll say it again anyhow:

I'm fine with that because no rules were changed without telling the players. The way damage reduction works is a rule. A monsters stats are not. See the difference?

 

[Tsyr]

Your right I read wrong.

It doesnt really matter. Every spell in the PHB tells you very clearly what you must do to connect with it. Either its an auto-hit, touch attack, or ranged touch attack.

How to make all three are clearly explained in the PHB. You do not need the DMG to make a touch attack, or a ranged touch attack.

So again what that DM did was completely different from what I did. He changed rules that are part of a players given knowledge and did not tell you before hand.

Actualy, I should have been a bit more exact... he didn't change that part. I still had to determine if I hit or not as usual. But I also had to make an INT check to see if I *didn't* hit one of my friends by accident as well. The same DM, in that session, also started introducing dex checks in a heated melee to see if we got in each others way and so forth. He later claimed it was to try to make it "grittier" and "more realistic". I don't think he has a group anymore. So yes, the situations aren't the same, but I wasn't actualy trying to claim they were... I'm explaining *why* don't like rules being changed on the fly, without telling players.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

How about if I quintuppled (Spelling?) the cost for creating random magic items. And didn't tell the players this until they made them. That is DMG knowledge, remember.

If your arguement is that since Item Creation is mentioned at all in the PHB, it's player knowledge, I'd like to point out that damage reduction, including the fact that enchanted weapons can bypass it, is mentioned in the PHB. Not all the specifics, but then, neither are all the specifics of magic item creation detailed in the PHB... so I'd say the comparisions are valid.

That is fine. Unless you change the rules for potions,scrolls or wands which are both spelled out in the PHB over what the cost if for creating them.

When it comes to miscellaneous magic items there is no set cost and if you changed the prices on those you are well within your right without telling the party in advance.

 

[Tom Cashel]

What the heck is the topic here?

1. Is it okay to change the DR rules without telling players?
2. Is it okay for DMs to alter monsters "on the fly" without telling players?
3. Is it okay for the DM to "punish" obvious meta-gaming?
4. Is it okay for the DM to keep the DMG and MM to himself?
   [/list=1]
   
   Seems like all these topics are getting mixed indiscriminately, and this is leading to misunderstandings all over the place. Sorry to keep popping up, Doc, since I know you're trying to ignore me...but this thread is interesting and frustrating at the same time.
   
   (I'd say: 1. no, 2. yes, 3. yes, 4. depends on the group)

 

[Joseph Elric Smith]

Wrong again.

The magic missle spell is clearly defined in the PHB as hitting the intended target without fail. It has a zero miss chance unless blocked by certain magical effects.

So what your DM did is NOTHING AT ALL like what I did. Nowhere does the Magic Weapon spell say that it trumps all material based DR. This can be implied by reading the spell and the reading the DMG and MM rules on DR. That though is outside the pervue of the character.

he said other then magic missle please reread what he said. Jesh
ken

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Actualy, I should have been a bit more exact... he didn't change that part. I still had to determine if I hit or not as usual. But I also had to make an INT check to see if I *didn't* hit one of my friends by accident as well. The same DM, in that session, also started introducing dex checks in a heated melee to see if we got in each others way and so forth. He later claimed it was to try to make it "grittier" and "more realistic". I don't think he has a group anymore. So yes, the situations aren't the same, but I wasn't actualy trying to claim they were... I'm explaining *why* don't like rules being changed on the fly, without telling players.

Still not the same thing. Even a first level character has swung his sword in battle before and a spellcaster has cast his spells before. You know what to do in those situations. Adding Int checks and Dex checks on the fly is different from me changing DR before the party has ever encountered a DR foe before.

 

[Tom Cashel]

he said other then magic missle please reread what he said. Jesh
ken

He knows. Read back a few posts.

 

[Tsyr]

That is fine. Unless you change the rules for potions,scrolls or wands which are both spelled out in the PHB over what the cost if for creating them.

When it comes to miscellaneous magic items there is no set cost and if you changed the prices on those you are well within your right without telling the party in advance.

See, I feel differently. IMHO, a player should know before he creates an item how much XP it's gonna cost him...

I know, if I created a magic sword, and the DM said "Ok... mark (way more XP than it should be) off your sheet", I would be upset... I probably wouldn't have created the item if I knew how much it cost.

 

[Tsyr]

Still not the same thing. Even a first level character has swung his sword in battle before and a spellcaster has cast his spells before. You know what to do in those situations. Adding Int checks and Dex checks on the fly is different from me changing DR before the party has ever encountered a DR foe before.

Like I said, I know they aren't the same thing. I'm just saying that because of things like that, I'm very conservative on this issue.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Adding Int checks and Dex checks on the fly is different from me changing DR before the party has ever encountered a DR foe before.

The bottom line:

To be "fair," you have to tell your players you're changing DR before play begins (but don't necessarily have to explain the changes, if they're cool with that), and warn them against meta-gaming.

Once you've done these things, players need to chill out, go with the flow, and enjoy the game the DM has worked so hard to create.