Kits vs. Prestige Classes vs. Racial Variants

[Mournblade94]

I like the variations with Archtypes from pathfinder. They remind me a bit more of a kit approach. I think I prefer the class ability substitution of archtypes to prestige classes. The best prestige classes I think were the original ones in the DMG and FRCG. After that they became powerhouses.

 

[Greg K]

Prestige Classes: They become something wildly different than what they were meant to be. I'd like to see them as DM's options for campaign organizations. I'd rather not see them than have them be just another character building block for players.

Which means going back to what they were meant to be in the 3.0 DMG and , then, telling a) players that they are DM tools meant to customize the campaign world; and b) DMs that they have nobody to blame if they let players take them freely.

At the same, time, WOTC needs to make sure that the PrC is not better represented by a class variant/kit or theme. There were several PrCs in 3e from WOTC and third parties that looked more appropriate as a Unearthed Arcana class variant for a starting character. Class customization was something in the PHB and DMG. It should have seen wider before Unearthed Arcana.

 

[Greg K]

Whether kits were broken depended on what splatbook you got them from. The fighter book was fine, the thief book largely useless. The priest book was overspecialized, I felt. And then books like the elf book and the bard book started to inch up the power level in every book.

In contrast, I disliked many of the kits in the Fighter' book The Amazon gets a bonus for a round or two against males. The Savage uses the alarm spell to detect danger when asleep. On the other hand, I loved the Thief Book I loved kits and all. The Priest book I, as a DM, loved.

Most of the 2e kits, in my opinion, suffered from the patchwork nature of pre-3e D&D. With no formal framework, you got horrible mechanics (e.g., the Savage using the Alarm spell) and the Amazon's benefit and, kits, like those in the elf and bard book (I like many of the kit ideas sans the benefits)- my opinion of course. That said, I loved the format of the 2e PHBR line and thought 3e could have done 2e kits much better given its unified system, skill system, and feats.

 

[gyor]

I want themes which would devour prestige classes and epic destinies, but with multitheming, but themes should be used for background sort of stuff, like I'm a werewolf or a noble, stuff not tied to race or class, I want kits/archetypes for class variants like Blackguard for Paladins, and I want subraces, but reserved for campaign setting books, like gold, silver, and star elves/elderin in FRs player book, Athas Elves in darksuns, ect...

 

[the Jester]

The traditional 2e execution of kits was so spine-shudderingly broken that I can't think of them in a positive light.

I am okay with racial variants- I think 3e did a great job between racial paragon classes, racial levels, etc- but am not really enthusiastic about them.

Prestige classes is the way to go IMHO, although I generally favor possible entry at 2nd level for more 'basic' prcs.

 

[Greg K]

I am not voting, but I would go other.

1. I like 2e kits in theory. I think 3e could do these better with class customization given 3e's unified system, feats, alternate class abilities, and the Cityscape web enhancement for swapping urban and wilderness skills, the tools are there. However, 2e kits prepackaged examples of archetypes from history, literature, and tv/film are great- especially for players and new or time strapped DMs..

2. I like 3e Unearthed Arcana style class variants (see #1 above). non-spellcasting paladins (from Complete Champions) urban rangers, non-spellcasting rangers (Complete Champion) , wilderness rogues, divine or nature casting bards, alternate monk fighting styles, urban barbarians (not everyone that fights with rage over skill is from the wilderness).

3. 4e builds. Great for showing how to build different approaches of a class.

4. 4e themes and backgrounds. I loved d20Modern Occupations and wanted to see them, officially, for D&D.

5. Star Wars Saga/ D20 Modern talent trees. Talent trees are a great idea. I could see using them, but allowing themes and backgrounds granting access to some that are special to the theme or from another class. This might be good for certain alternate class features. However, I would worry about a proliferation of Talent Trees. I would also have a concern that certain choices might have unnecessary prerequisites that block access to a talent that fits a legitmate concept.

All of the above are, in my opinion good options. Much better than PrCs, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies which should never be mandatory, in my opinion. Furthermore many prestige classes were viable starting character concepts and should been variant class features or could have been avoided with a couple of extra base classes that were genreric hybrids of existing classes (eliminating the multiclass hoop and PrCs needed to fix them).

 

[Yora]

At the same, time, WOTC needs to make sure that the PrC is not better represented by a class variant/kit or theme. There were several PrCs in 3e from WOTC and third parties that looked more appropriate as a Unearthed Arcana class variant for a starting character. Class customization was something in the PHB and DMG. It should have seen wider before Unearthed Arcana.

The reason there were so many PrCs was because PrCs fill books you can sell to players. Later on, a single PrC could fill six pages or more, even though it had only 5 levels and was really boring.

 

[Guest 85555]

The reason there were so many PrCs was because PrCs fill books you can sell to players. Later on, a single PrC could fill six pages or more, even though it had only 5 levels and was really boring.

I would really like to see wotc focus on another approach. Ultimately this was one of the things that drove me away from 3E toward the end. Settings, modules, gm guide books and unbroken (non game expanding) player sourcebooks add so much more to the game than a bunch of crunch books.

 

[Serendipity]

I went with None of the above and Something completely different...let me explain because I want something *like* character kits, but not so close that it'd be the same thing. What I've heard about themes sounds like a combo of 4e themes and pathfinder archetypes and THAT I am all over.
I'm content for PrCs to occupy an optional strata that I may or may not ever make use of as a GM depending on how it's implemented (Hint: if it looks anything like it did in 3.5, no way.)
And I really really really don't want the return to the ice cream shop of flavors approach to races. I've mentioned elsewhere that I really would like a sharp differentiation between innate physical capability and culture for all of the races. It occurs to me that you could create 'culture packs' - a dedicated set of theme/theme-y things to chose from when you make your race selection, based on which ones were available by campaign setting or whatever. THAT would be the bees knees as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Greg K]

I forgot to cover racial variants. I love the environmental races from Unearthed Arcana. I think themes would be good here and not just for non-humans.

One of the best things 4e did was remove most of the non-biological aspects of race- Personally, I think they should have gone all the way (Things like Group Diplomacy and Half elf Dilettante should be feats in my opinion).

What I would like to see character generation include
a) environmental themes: Arctic, Cavern, City, Desert, Forest, Jungle, Marsh/Swamp, Mountain, Plains, etc.

b) culture: hunter/gatherer, Foot Nomads, Horse Nomads, River Nomad, Dwarves, Elves, Noble, Urban, Urban (street), Special: Apprentice (raised secluded by a wizard), Special: Temple (raised by a temple of a specific deity), Special: Monastic (raised by monks), etc.

These could even be made more specific based on the campaign. Specific clan, tribe, or Nation (e.g, Stinky Marsh dwelling Dwarves, Dragonspine Mountain Dwarves, Ghostwalker jungle halflings (halfing hunter gathers from a remote jungle), Mysterious Pointed Hat Man's apprentice etc.) Some like Big Townsman might give an occupational theme (craftsman, profession, performer) as its benefit.