Knife Fighter PrC

berhagen

First Post
What do you think about this Prestige class? I know the flavour story isn't great, but it is assumed to be a more generic PrC anyway.

Do you think it is too strong? Too weak? You think the order of the abilities should be different?

Just let me know. I'm open to suggestions.

Knife fighter PrC

He is the master of the fighting pits, and feared in the back alleys, he fights for money, for a drink, or sometimes for fun. His weapon is the dagger, a weapon often disregarded by knights, overlooked by guards, but in the Knife Fighters hands a weapon as dangerous as a great sword.

The Knife fighter is often from lowly birth, born in the bad parts of a large city. He learned how to use the dagger one of the few weapons he could find to his advantage. Now he fights. In the back alleys, to help people against robbers and cutthroats, or a robber and cutthroat himself. However something that all knife fighters feel is a contempt for the society that created them and an anger because the poverty they had to life through, or that others have to live in.

Requirements

To qualify to become a Knife figher (Kff), a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Alignment: any non-lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Special: Sneak Attack Damage +2d6
Feats: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Any kind of dagger).

Hit Dice: D8

Level: BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +0 +2 +0 Absolute Ambidexterity
2 +2 +0 +3 +0 Sneak Attack damage +d6
3 +3 +1 +3 +1 Flick of the Wrist
4 +4 +1 +4 +1 Improved Rapid Shot
5 +5 +1 +4 +1 Sneak Attack Damage +2d6, Twin sword Style
6 +6 +2 +5 +2 Close Combat Fighting
7 +7 +2 +5 +2 Sneak Attack Damage +3d6
8 +8 +2 +6 +2 Improved Critical
9 +9 +3 +6 +3 Sneak Attack Damage +4d6, Improved Range
10 +10 +3 +7 +3 Bleeding Strike


Class Skills

The Knife Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis). See chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skills: 4+Int Bonus per level.

Class Features

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: A Knife fighter is proficient with the punching dagger and the normal dagger, the Kukri and light armor.

Absolute Ambidexterity: Beginning at 1st level, the Knife Fighter's attack penalties for fighting with two weapons lessen by 2 when she is wearing light or no armor, and using daggers. Thus he effectively has no penalties for fighting with two weapons.

Flick of the Wrist: With a single motion, you can draw a light weapon and make a devastating attack. If you draw a light weapon and make a melee attack with it in the same round, you catch your opponent flat-footed (for the purpose of this attack only). This ability can be used only once per combat.

Sneak attack Damage: as the rogue ability.

Improved rapid shot: You no longer have a penalty to attack when using the rapid shot feat. This ability can only be used when using daggers, and wearing light or no armor.

Twin Sword Style: The knife fighter gets the feat Twin Sword Style for free when using two daggers. (From the FRS, it gives a +2 dodge bonus if using two sword type weapons)

Close combat fighting: If you are in a grapple, you can use your dagger (and normal attack bonus with it) when attempting any grapple action, except for the Pin maneuvre. You do normal dagger damage.

Improved Critical: The critical multiplier for all daggers is increase by +1. This means that a dagger will do x3 on a critical hit instead of x2.

Improved range: The range increment for throwing daggers is doubled.

Bleeding strike: You can make a special attack aimed at your opponent as a full round action, that provokes an attack of opportunity. You can only make one attack during this action. In addition to normal dagger damage, you cause a number of bleeding wounds equal to the number of sneak attack dice you have. (e.g. You have 5d6 sneak attack dice, so you cause 5 bleeding wounds) Each bleeding wound does 1 additional point of damage per round (5 in our example). Blood loss stops when a victim receives a successful heal check, or any cure spell.
 

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I like most of it.

I think the prerequisites are a little high though. I'd substitute Two Weapon Combination from the Netbook of Feats as a possible substitute for Ambidex and Two Weapon Style (TWC gives you these in one feat but only with a specific combination of two weapons). Also, +6 base attack bonus seems a bit high for a rogue prestiege class to me, I'd have gone with +4. Maybe +6 if the sneak attack requirement was only 1d6, because I'd expect people to then take fighter levels to get the feats sooner. I don't think it should take 10 levels to get this class, more like 5-7.

Also, I'm wondering about Flick of the Wrist vs Quicker than the Eye from song and silence. I'd be a little worried about people trying to abuse these by using them in combination.

Oh, and I think you mean Increased Multiplier, not Improved Critical. Improved Critical doubles a threat range, as per keen (and stacks with keen), but doesn't increase the critical multiplier. Maybe keeping the multiplier improvement where it is and sticking the threat-expanding improved critical at 2nd level would be good, I could see someone specializing in daggers knowing how to make criticals with them more often fairly early on in the class. That would leave 7th level as the only level where you don't gain a feat-like ability though. Maybe Vital Strike (daggers only), again from the Netbook of Feats, that makes threats auto-critical with the weapon. Normally this is a fairly broken feat, but if you restrict it to daggers only, it's not so bad. This goes well with improved critical and increased multiplier, and let's face it, when you're like 13th level, a dagger's damage isn't all that anymore, doubling it won't really make you overpower high level fighters or mages. Especially without power attack (which would be a good idea to take from feats outside this class). Is an extra d4 + a rogue's strength mod 20% of the time (assuming doubled threat range of 17-20) going to overpower a 13th level fighter? (assuming 6 levels to get this feat because vs a 17th level fighter if you need 10 levels to get this feat it's laughable) I don't think so. Even if it goes to 3d4 + 3x strength mod on the next level with increased multiplier, that's still not more BS than most 15th level characters (huge platinum mercurial greatsword with 4d6 base damage anyone?). I think it might need something else too. Lingering Damage (I think this is from one of the newer books like deities and demigods) is nice for high levels. If you do sneak attack damage it repeats again on the next round.

The rest of it looks great. I really like the bleeding strike and two sword style (though this would be better with a better name, since it's really a defensive feat not a fighting style feat. What's FRS stand for by the way?)

Ok I might re-tweak the order a little bit. How about:

1 Absolute Ambidexterity, Increased Range
2 Sneak attack, Improved Rapid Shot
3 Improved Critical (threat range) w/daggers
4 Sneak attack, Close Combat Fighting
5 Flick of the Wrist
6 Sneak Attack, Two Sword Style
7 Vital Strike (daggers only)
8 Sneak attack, Lingering Damage
9 Increased Critical Multiplier
10 Sneak attack, Bleeding Strike

This puts most of the powerful feats in levels by themselves, and puts the less powerful feats in levels where you also gain a sneak attack die. I also tried to make them get more powerful as the class progresses. Stuff like Increased Range is nice but I'd kinda be irked if I got that as like my only 16th level class ability. I think it should be earlier on in the class.

If you think this makes it an overpowering prestiege class, compare it to say, Master Samurai, or Arcane Trickster. I don't think this would outpower either of those.
 

I think you should go with melee combat, and drop all the ranged combat abilities. Knife fighters fight in melle, knife throwers throw their knifes. Each should be it's own speciality.
 

Comments from people I play with.

Ok, I ran this by some friends of mine and they had the following input:

Lingering Damage is severely broken. It applies to all sneak attacks as described in the book, which is way too powerful. I think if it were "as a full round action only" and maybe "the repeated sneak attack dice do not count towards bleeding strike's wounding damage" then it would be ok. Then you could spend a full round to essentially stab someone with both daggers in vital spots (which is what I had in mind when I mentioned this feat), and have them take twice the normal sneak attack damage (though one is counted on the next round). Basicly you use two weapons to hit them in two vital organs, but it takes a full round to set this up.

The prerequisites should be Weapon Finesse (any dagger) instead of Weapon Focus (any dagger). This is pretty much a dex based class so this makes sense, plus you'd have to still spend the extra weapon focus feat for an exotic dagger like a platnium one, etc.

Also, the text on several of the class abilities should say "Any dagger that is also at least two size categories smaller than you." Otherwise you have size category issues, or people try using daggers one size category larger (small) because they're still considered light weapons for humans, etc.
 

Alignement: why non-lawful? Seems alignement shouldn't play too much importance in this class.

Remove Bleeding Strike and that Two Sword Style feat. It's me but I dont like them.

Another thing: Sneak attack, sneak attack, sneak attack. It's a fighter guy isn't it? I know sneak attacks are good fill-ins, but I've seen SO many other PrC's with the same ability. It's getting boring.
 

i'm guessing, but i think its non-lawful because of the flick of the wrist, sneak attack idea-style-combo-thing. not exactly lawful to be talking to someone then out of nowhere run a (super) dagger into him. when i read the flavour text, i thought it was going to be more melee, and Crothian suggested. i agree. i'd like to see more cool melee abilities that make the knife fighter live up to his claim that a knife in his hands is like a greatsword. maybe some more defensive abilites or cool tricks/fancy moves.
 

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