Knockdown + Improved Trip

[Cayle]

Hi,

fellow Adventurers.

Recently, upon reaching 9th Level a new Fighting style within our Group came up, when one of our Fighters (a soon-to-be Master of Chains) came up with his theory of getting a huge benefit from the Knockdown-Feat in conjunction with the improved trip Feat.

He would have two attacks per round, and with every attack he makes against a foe, he would easily deal more than 10 Points of damage, therefore getting a free trip attempt against this Opponent, and, if that's successful, would get another attack via the improved trip (whenever successfully tripping, get an extra attack against that opponent) and therefore have 4 Attacks a round if everything runs well (with him being really strong, Strength checks are not an issue...)

Is there anything, he'd have misinterpreted, or does it work that way?

sincerely,

Cayle (Bbn6/Rog3)

"Bonus-Feats? Bonus-Feats are for Loosers who are not good enogh to compete against me "

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

That seems to be the way those rules work, yes.

I wouldn't call that too innovative, though, considering that Improved Trip is a prerequisite for Knockdown-- doesn't require too much thinking to put that combination together.

 

[Wilson]

"Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, ..."

So he could either attack and get a free trip (through Knock-Down) or trip and get a free attack (through Improved Trip), but not attack, trip, and attack.

 

[Murrdox]

Exactly right. You can't combine Knockdown with Improved Trip to get extra attacks.

However, I have an additional question. It's probably been answered before, but I didn't see it in the FAQ last time I went through it.

What about a fighter who has Knockdown, Improved Trip, and Whirlwind attack?

Instead of making a melee attack against all the foes, could a whirlwinding fighter make trip attacks against everyone (and get an attack on each one if sucessful). This would be using Improved Trip in conjunction with Whirlwind.

Also, could you use Knockdown in conjunction with Whirlwind?

What about Improved Sunder? Improved Disarm?

 

[Cayle]

"Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, ..."

Where's this line from (Book and Page), because we were searching for such a Phrase. I must apologize for not having all Supplements, because our GM is having hold of them.

Cayle

 

[Datt]

Cayle:
It is the very last line from the description of Knockdown. I believe it is in the Sword & Fist.



Murrdox:

Whirlwind Attack [General]

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Expertise, Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4 or higher, Spring Attack.

Benefit: When the character performs the full attack action, he or she can give up all regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent within 5 feet.

So I would say that since you have to use a Full Attack action and give up all regular attacks that you couldn't use both Improved Trip and Whirlwind. You aren't trying to make a trip attack you are just trying to hit. But I wouldn't see a problem with Knockdown and Whirlwind Attack. If you hit each opponent for more than 10 points then they all fall down. Sort of like ring around Rosey game.

I would also say No to Improved Sunder and Disarm. You are not concentrating on doing anything but hitting your opponents.

 

[Murrdox]

Datt, I would be inclined to agree with you.. but the rules seem to allow it.

Here's a bit from the very end of the Disarm action from the SRD:

]This action substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

Here's something on sundering...

Strike a weapon [Standard][AoO: Yes]
Description: A character can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that a character's opponent is holding.

And finally, on tripping:

Making a Trip Attack: Make a melee attack as a melee touch attack ... This attack form substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As a melee attack, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

It only says that you have to give up all your attacks, but make one melee attack against each opponent within 5'. However, it doesn't say anything about not being able to use those melee attacks for tripping, or disarming.

I could see not allowing sundering... because in that case you are striking your opponent's WEAPON, not your opponent himself.

Any other thoughts on this?

Also, I'm sure this has been covered before... but what about Whirlwinding with a reach weapon? The feat specifies 5' only... what if you have several opponents that are 10' away? Obviously otherwise you couldn't whirlwind with a reach weapon, since you can't attack anything within 5' of you with a 10' weapon.

 

[Datt]

Yeah the rules do leave it open for it but I just can't see it happening.

Here is how I see Whirlwind working.
Fighter: Oh I am surrounded. Okay if I spin real fast I can hit them all with [insert weapon here].

I don't think you would be able to trip however many opponents there are around you. You actually have to make a touch attack. Which means you are basically trying to push them down, and not hit them with your weapon.

 

[Murrdox]

Well, to be even MORE sickening, there's nothing to say that, for example, if I was surrounded by 4 people, I couldn't trip 2 of them, disarm one of them, and make a normal melee attack against another one.

Whirlwind isn't a literal "Spin on one toe with my weapon twirling around", it's sacrificing your multiple attacks to make one against everyone surrounding you... but you still MAKE SEPARATE ATTACKS.. if you just swung your sword around in a big circle... you'd only make one attack roll against all your opponents.

And in terms of how trip works... you DO use your weapon for tripping.... it's just that instead of attacking to cause damage, you're just trying to hook your weapon behind the foot of your opponent (or something similar) and thus, you don't need to penetrate armor, and thus it's a touch attack.

If you didn't need a weapon to make a trip attack, they wouldn't include rules for dropping your weapon to avoid being tripped yourself if you fail.

An unarmed trip attempt would provoke an attack of opportunity (even with Improved Trip) unless you were a monk, or were able to strike unarmed without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Otherwise, the rules assume you're using a weapon to trip.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Where's this line from (Book and Page), because we were searching for such a Phrase. I must apologize for not having all Supplements, because our GM is having hold of them.

Cayle

It's actually in the Sword & Fist errata, which you can download from the WotC website. You cannot get an extra attack with the Knockdown/Improved Trip feat combination, nor does the knockdown count as dropping a foe for the Cleave feat.