Knowledge check pile ons (d20)

[Quickleaf]

After encountering something unusual, Player A decides to make a knowledge check to see what they know about it. They make a poor to average roll...actually the result of their roll doesn't matter because 2 other players have grabbed their dice and are following suit with the same knowledge check. Player 2 is super trained and gets a 30+ (sufficient to learn a whole lot about the matter at hand). Player 3 isn't trained, but figures they *might* roll high and there's no harm in making a check.

This whole dynamic (which I've seen in all d20 games I've participated in) doesn't sit right with me...it feels haphazard, excessively "gamey", uncreative, robs Player A's limelight, and subtracts from the importance of the knowledge check.

Does this bother anyone else when it happens in your games? And how do you deal with it?

Thanks in advance

 

[Ahnehnois]

Sounds like teamwork to me. I don't see the problem.

If anything, I would think the in-game ramifications would be someone saying "hey this looks like a religious symbol, what you do think Mr. Cleric?" while himself rolling on the off chance that he can beat the cleric's trained roll. Player A may have had the initiative, but if player B's character is better at the task at hand, I expect them to work together,

In some systems, the aid another action actually means that both players roll and only the better result is used. Usually my players roll these things up fast. I don't see any logistical issues either.

 

[Crothian]

Doesn't bother me. In game it's usually something like

Player A fails knowledge check: "I know that somehow X links to Y but I can't quite figure it out"

Play B makes knowledge check: "Good thinking, I believe X connects to Y in the following way..."

As long as the PCs are communicating with each other or in a similar situation there doesn't seem to be a need for restricting knowledge checks. Usually, I want the PCs to make the knowledge checks because that's how they get clues and learn about things.

 

[SLOTHmaster]

On the other hand, when the 20 strength fighter rolls low when trying to force something and then the 8 strength wizard succeeds, things seem a little weird.

 

[Quickleaf]

On the other hand, when the 20 strength fighter rolls low when trying to force something and then the 8 strength wizard succeeds, things seem a little weird.

Yeah that's more of a systemic thing with the way d20 games work, though certainly just as true with trained vs. untrained skill users. Certainly a valid and connected line of discussion...

My initial question was more about the "I do it too!" phenomenon. Most of the time I've let it go as no big deal, but (and maybe it's just me) it always sticks out as unsatisfactory. The players rarely use aid another, and rolling repeatedly is much more valuable than a +2 bonus. In my games I differentiate between "need to know" clues (which the players automatically get) and "bonus" clues (which are often associated with a knowledge check). However with repeated knowledge checks made it's pretty much guaranteed *someone* will succeed, so the "bonus" clue becomes (effectively) automatic.

One thing I like about SWSE which somewhat limits this is that expert knowledge checks (DC 15+) require you to be trained in that knowledge skill. Still you do get situations where it's a "whose roll is bigger" between players with no impact on the story...my players don't make up any reason why their PC knows about this topic when the skill focused sage PC doesn't.

Maybe that's my problem...there's no narrative explanation, it's just an arbitrary dice roll.

 

[Umbran]

My initial question was more about the "I do it too!" phenomenon.

If they come upon an orc in the room, the fighter says, "I attack", and the rest of the party says, "I attack too!" You don't have a problem with that, right?

Now, in combat, everyone has a different way to attack. But everyone has the same way to know something. Everyone's doing the same thing, because they don't have anything else they can do that helps.

You might consider a house rule about knowledge checks - that the group gets one - additional people are not making their own checks, but instead get to "aid another" with their checks....

 

[DogBackward]

Keep in mind that in most d20 systems, you can't even attempt a Knowledge check unless you're trained. So either you have the guy who's got full ranks, who should be able to check... or the guy who has one rank in each skill, who is obviously playing a "Jack of All Trades" character, and should be able to check. Everybody else will need to ask someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

 

[Quickleaf]

If they come upon an orc in the room, the fighter says, "I attack", and the rest of the party says, "I attack too!" You don't have a problem with that, right?

Um, no, yes, maybe? It's just that in combat the PCs have so many different things to do, so "I attack too" is usually a lot more interesting, and often builds upon what the PCs/monsters did in previous rounds.

Keep in mind that in most d20 systems, you can't even attempt a Knowledge check unless you're trained. So either you have the guy who's got full ranks, who should be able to check... or the guy who has one rank in each skill, who is obviously playing a "Jack of All Trades" character, and should be able to check. Everybody else will need to ask someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

I was thinking of 4e, True20, and SWSE which I'm most familiar with.

 

[Wiseblood]

If they come upon an orc in the room, the fighter says, "I attack", and the rest of the party says, "I attack too!" You don't have a problem with that, right?

Now, in combat, everyone has a different way to attack. But everyone has the same way to know something. Everyone's doing the same thing, because they don't have anything else they can do that helps.

You might consider a house rule about knowledge checks - that the group gets one - additional people are not making their own checks, but instead get to "aid another" with their checks....

I would say its more like the fighter says "I attack" and everyone else says "I aid another" and if the fighter hits the enemy is defeated. There is no drawback for it happening so it's used every time and becomes SOP which make it kinda dull IMO.

People think being a fighter is dull because in combat they can't do many things that spellcasters do and instead they just attack or full attack. (not my position, but you get the point) I can imagine an interesting attack or exchange without bells and whistles. Now imagine a character scratching his head for a moment and then shouting eureka and it getting or being interesting ...ever.

 

[Storminator]

My initial question was more about the "I do it too!" phenomenon. Most of the time I've let it go as no big deal, but (and maybe it's just me) it always sticks out as unsatisfactory. The players rarely use aid another, and rolling repeatedly is much more valuable than a +2 bonus.

I usually force the PCs to aid another if they are all just making the same Knowledge check. Sometimes I'll make everyone aid the guy with the highest modifier, but sometimes it's the guy driving the action that gets the "main" roll.

PS