Knowledge check pile ons (d20)

[Quickleaf]

I usually force the PCs to aid another if they are all just making the same Knowledge check. Sometimes I'll make everyone aid the guy with the highest modifier, but sometimes it's the guy driving the action that gets the "main" roll.

PS

Do you provide an in-game explanation for why they cannot make the same knowledge check? Or is it a purely out of game thing (for the reasons I outlined above)?

 

[Gilladian]

Do you provide an in-game explanation for why they cannot make the same knowledge check? Or is it a purely out of game thing (for the reasons I outlined above)?

When I do this, the in game explanation goes "you discuss the matter among yourselves and come up with..."

 

[Grogg of the North]

I would see it as all the characters standing in a circle talking about the subject.

How many times have you been able to figure something out in real life after you've started talking about it with someone else? Makes sense to me.

If you want a more nuts and bolts solution, take the highest check and have the others "aid" that roll.

 

[SkidAce]

It kinda bothers me too, especially when its apparent that the "me too" player would not have had any input on their own.

But I have gotten used to it, and any solution seems worse, and I seem to be in the minority so there you go...

 

[Umbran]

Um, no, yes, maybe? It's just that in combat the PCs have so many different things to do, so "I attack too" is usually a lot more interesting, and often builds upon what the PCs/monsters did in previous rounds.

That is, of course, my point. If you only give the players one way to contribute, they'll only use that one way.

There is no drawback for it happening so it's used every time and becomes SOP which make it kinda dull IMO.

Yes, but that isn't the player's fault. Nor is it the game's fault - we are talking about a thing that isn't a full challenge in and of itself. The resolution of this is supposed to be quick and simple, unobtrusive to play.

Part of the issue here may be the context - rarely do players make knowledge checks, "just because". They do it in the context of some other activity - they need the knowledge to accomplish some goal or task. What is that goal or task? Why aren't the other PCs engaged in other portions of the activity, such that they aren't available to ask?

While I know folks have tons of problems with how they were presented, this, honestly, is part of what the skill challenge mechanic was designed to do - imagine that knowledge check is just one part of an overall skill challenge. The other PCs should be engaged in other portions of the challenge! Why are they just sitting around? They'll stop horning in on the action if they're already busy doing other cool things.

 

[Victim]

What, so other characters shouldn't know something because someone else brought up the topic?

Aid Another is generally not very good compared to a second roll unless the second party has very little chance. So it's often better for people to pile on with their own checks than to help out the first guy if the party wants to succeed. And in many cases, know stuff/find stuff out checks are essential for driving action.

 

[FickleGM]

I prefer to let the situation dictate whether fellow party-members can aid, pile on or neither. When any of the above is possible, I let the players decide, provided they can explain their actions in a way that makes sense.

 

[Wiseblood]

That is, of course, my point. If you only give the players one way to contribute, they'll only use that one way.



Yes, but that isn't the player's fault. Nor is it the game's fault - we are talking about a thing that isn't a full challenge in and of itself. The resolution of this is supposed to be quick and simple, unobtrusive to play.

Part of the issue here may be the context - rarely do players make knowledge checks, "just because". They do it in the context of some other activity - they need the knowledge to accomplish some goal or task. What is that goal or task? Why aren't the other PCs engaged in other portions of the activity, such that they aren't available to ask?

While I know folks have tons of problems with how they were presented, this, honestly, is part of what the skill challenge mechanic was designed to do - imagine that knowledge check is just one part of an overall skill challenge. The other PCs should be engaged in other portions of the challenge! Why are they just sitting around? They'll stop horning in on the action if they're already busy doing other cool things.

You're right of course it is the context, presentation and the ease of use that funnels it into the realm of SOP. I as a DM have failed to stop this decline, but it's a greased rope. Knowledge checks should have a warning label next to them.

 

[ComradeGnull]

On the other hand, when the 20 strength fighter rolls low when trying to force something and then the 8 strength wizard succeeds, things seem a little weird.

"On closer inspection, the door has the word 'PULL' written above it in ten inch high red letters."

 

[Rogue Agent]

After encountering something unusual, Player A decides to make a knowledge check to see what they know about it. They make a poor to average roll...actually the result of their roll doesn't matter because 2 other players have grabbed their dice and are following suit with the same knowledge check. Player 2 is super trained and gets a 30+ (sufficient to learn a whole lot about the matter at hand). Player 3 isn't trained, but figures they *might* roll high and there's no harm in making a check.

Knowledge checks are actually one of the few check where it doesn't bug me: They represent what people know and are generally reflexive. (You see an orc. Do you know what it is? Everybody gets a check.) Basically, they're like Spot checks.

Where it really bugs me is Search checks: It's pure metagaming for people to only pitch in on a search when they know that the first searcher rolled poorly.

And that's the real problem: When people make decisions about what they are and aren't doing based on metagame knowledge. If it bugs you enough, the solution is simple: Remove the metagame knowledge. For any check where this bugs you, make those rolls secretly.