Knowledge comes from libraries

[LazerPointer]

In campaigns where I play, I get 2 or 3 skill points per level. To know a lot about something I'd have to forgo ranks in Walk, and Dress Yourself. For my DM-manship, though, I have a new idea to reflect wizards', bards', and clerics' book smarts.

For every library, I'll decide how much of their books are informative books written by the masters, and how much is just derivitive crap. There'll be a simple list, kinda like:

Woodlatem, Library of the Estherian Order
Knowledge (arcana) 2 ranks
Knowledge (geography, [specific region]) 1 rank
Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks

A search check would determine how much info they find on each subject, though time taken, helpful/spiteful librarians, and specific subjects sought would help or hinder the result.


This idea also works better, imo, with a splintering of the knowledge skills; in-depth works on conjuration may only give a bonus on Knowledge: (arcana) checks when it has to do with conjuration, for example, and reading about the great forest to the north won't give you insight into the geography of mountains.

I realize this part could turn into an annoying bookeeping task in itself, so one would have to be careful not to overdo it. Whaddya think?

 

[Orichin]

A house rule I use along a similar vein goes something like this:
after determining the overall usefullness of a given library, I set a bonus of 1, 2, 3, or 4 that the library can give to a relavant knowledge skill. With up to an hour's research and a successful knowledge check DC 7, 10, 13, or 16 accordingly. Success on the check indicates that the given bonus may be applied to a knowledge check to find a piece of information. With a week's study, and a successful knowledge check at the same difficulty + 10, the character may add half of that library's bonus as an insight modifier to one of their knowledge skills permanently. I then apply an upper limit on various knowledges based on how much information the world has recorded (generally the cap is around 10-15).

This allows players to advance a knowledge skill without spending skill points on other (arguably more useful) skills. It also reflects the fact that as one's mind becomes more and more accustomed to thinking upon certain lines, it becomes easier and easier to learn the concepts.
The bonus may seem a bit high for something to be simply handed out, but the time required in game makes it so that characters rarely have time in their adventuring careers to spend years locked in various libraries getting really smart-like wisened sages, scholars, philosophers, and other brainy npc's do.

 

[Vlos]

What are Books/Libraries worth in game...

A library grants knowledge to specific things it contains, and possibly knowledge to related things in contains. So in game terms this would be a bonus to knowledge checks. The more organized, higher quality of books and the more focused the libraries topics are, the more information (or bonus to knowledge check) the characters will get.

So the question is how do you do this without upsetting the game too much. I don't think it is an imbalance between classes, with the exception of the barbarian, as any character could find a book and create their own library or even visit a library. Though I would suspect casting types (mages, sorcerers, priests) would have a much easier time accessing a library owned by someone other then themselves.

One thought would be to give each book a bonus value, from say 1-5 (max) with 4-5 being magical bonuses. This though could get out of control as one could easily find 4-5 books on a specific subject and get a large bonus, even at early levels. Also this would require that the GM define every book in a library before he knows the general library.

So, first I will breakdown individual books (which the GM may hand out) and then discus libraries.

Individual Book Ratings:
I think for rating books a system maybe similar to the following where the book bonus would be based on the values rounded down as a player would never get the full quality out of a book written by someone else.

Book Contents:
General Discussion = +0.5 (Lower Planes)
Focused Discussion = +1.0 (Demons of the Lower Planes)
Specific Discussion = +1.5 (Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead)

Book Quality:
Poor = -0.5 (book is poorly written and actually contains misleading information)
Normal = 0.5 (A standard book in a normal setting)
Good = +1.0 (Well written book)
Excellent = +1.5 (A book written by an expert on the field)


So for an excellent book on Orcus would grant a +3.0 bonus when used in a knowledge check. This may also help with determining the value of the book as well in GP values (but beyond the current scope of this post).


Library Ratings:
So now the question comes to how do you determine what a library has for book contents and their qualities. Also how long does it take to find the relavent information the character is searching for.

Ok, taking Orchin's view and modifying it a bit to make it not too powerful. You give a library a ranking of the quality of the library, this may include the organization as well as the quality of the material inside. Also some libraries, like books may be more focused in their content.



Library Organization:
Poor = +15
Good = +10
Excellent = +5

Library Contents(Quality):
Poor = +15
Good = +10
Excellent = +5

Library Contents(Topics):
General = +15
Focused = +10
Specific = +5

Also the amount to research basic information will effect how hard it is to find information related to what they are seeking, this will lower the DC of the library check. Lets say the base time spent searching is a day. So we will need some modifiers for how long someone spends searching in the library.

Time Spent Researching:
1 hour = +10
1 day = +0
2-6 days = -1 for each day
1 week = -10
1 month = -20
1 year = -50

So the bonus one gets from a library is the difference between their roll and the libraries DC check(Organization + Quality + Topic Focus) modified by the time spent searching.

For example characters searching 1 week(-10) in, an Excellent Library(+5) with Excellent Quality(+5) books focused on a Specific topic(+5) would allow a novice (someone with no skill(-10) to get some information out) because a total DC of 15 (a bonus from anywhere from 0-5), based on a d20 roll with no skill (20 - DC 15 = 5 max bonus). Where as a higher level player would be able to get alot more information out of such a excellent specific library in a shorter amount of time. For example a character with 20 ranks in Knowledge(Demons) spent 1 day in an excellent library that is dedicated to Orcus, would get a bonus anywhere from a +6 to a +35 for specific questions related to Orcus.

So those same players spending more time will get more information.

The above will allow for some very high rolls, but again this is a bonus to knowledge checks about a topic. The GM can always rule that certain information is just not available in books or a knowledge check.

 

[Corlon]

Wow, I'd never really thought in detail about how to run libraries.

Usually if the characters have some sort of book on a specific subject, if they spend enough time to read it they'll gain whatever knowledge is contained in the book, no matter their knowledge.

For libraries, I just generally apply arbitrary bonuses depending on how good the library/staff/all that jazz is, and how long the characters spend researching.

 

[Vlos]

Yeah, I tend to over complicate things....

You are basically doing the same thing, just in your head. Some people like me like a more defined method..

 

[jerichothebard]

Yeah - I've done things along those lines. There is a library in my world that will give +1/day spent doing research, up to +10, on any knowledge check except Arcana (campaign setting thing).

It works pretty well. The key to it is enforcing research time.

I also have created a few specific books which act as masterwork tools for Knowledge checks. So far, Apparitions to Zombies, the Compleat Illustrated Guide to the Walking Dead is the only one they have run into. Available for 200 gold at Barnabus and Nobbles, Gnomish Bookprinters.

It gives a +2 to Knowledge: religion checks made to identify undead, or determine facts about them.

Essentially, I have ruled it has illustrations, descriptions and information equivilant to the illustrations and flavor text in the 3.5 Monster Manual. Other undead from other sources are not covered - they are not common enough in the world to warrant an entry... yet. However, the bonus still applies, because there is enough of the basics to be able to make inferences.

The characters have, in fact, submitted an entry into the next edition (coming soon!) regarding a custom undead I threw at them. As a low-level lich variant, it re-spawned, so they became quite familiar with it. Eventually, they captured its phlactery, and rather than destroy it, donated it to the Order of the Light of ORB (the hunters of the dead) as a training device. It respawns, rookies kill it, it respawns, lather, rinse, repeat... So the Order is comparing their draft against what they can verify in "the Zoo".

 

[Crosshair]

I was thinking of some type of point system, as to not overly specify knowledge skills, because they are knowledge[general topic] not knowledge[demons->high level demons->orcus].

[This section doesn't matter--->]We're assuming all stats set to 10, which if a commoner took and (well not untrained, can't do that)(but we'll use the term untrained) knowledge check, he would get d20+0.

We generally judge someones knowledge by there intelligence, as well as ranks. Such that a trained person in say history would have maybe 3-4 ranks and an intelligence bonus.

A higher level character would invaritably have a lot higher bonus from in-depth experience, yada yada(Making this up as I go.)

If you read a textbook on history, it would probably give you 2-4 ranks, signifying that you would probably haphazardly teach a history class(also depending on intelligence.)

We're basing this on a 5 point system. This is determined by a large course textbook being 500 pages(depending on size really, one of mine has over 1000 but it's quite pequeno).

Now to the point, that you haven't been waiting for. You read 300 pages of text on history, you get 3 points. Then you read a 50 page booklet by some joe-schmo, you get 1/2 pt. Then you read a 250 page book by a scholar gnome. you get 2 1/2 pts totaling 5.

(More to go with that ^: maybe you read Undead:Vampires in your city[300 pages], Undead: How to stake a ghoul in the eye[200 pages], and Undead suck, not for you city.[50 pages], signifying that you got a variety of knowledge on the topic.)

You've now read what is my opinion of 2-4 ranks or enough to teach a course... Or something like that...

I feel like I'm missing something.

Cross

 

[Bihor]

If a character go in a library in my game he need to make a Search check or Profession Librarian check in the librarie, too find books on the subject that will give bonus on the knowledge roll.

The thing is you don't need more rules because in a librarie you cant take 20 and if you dont have days to spend take 10.

And the ranks you put in a knowledge, when you gain a level it is supose to be time you spend in a librarie.