'Known World' - OD&D

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

(And yes, I know there was a group working on it for 3e. I never liked big group projects; you always spent more time debating than designing. Stifled my creativity. Of course, that's not to say their work wasn't better than mine, we just had different goals.)

Five years on, they're still arguing over the most bizarre details. Mystara 3E will be ready right around the time 4E hits the shelves.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I believe it was Bruce Heard (though I might be wrong) that was said they wanted to do some dramatic things with the setting - have the Patriarch of the Church of Karameikos die and plunge the nation into the middle of the religious war, but the suits at TSR told them to leave everything exactly the way it was, just set the calendar forward a few years. They wanted to get the entire setting ported over before doing anything drastic with it.

I recall hearing from James Mishler that the designer of the Karameikos boxed set, Jeff Grubb, was the one who wanted to do the dramatic holy war and everything, but was denied. Apparently, Grubb wanted to do a massive project for the entire Known World along those lines for the 2E "transliteration", but the "Powers What Be" determined that, no, doing a boxed set for each and every nation would earn them more return on the their investment in the end (making everyone get each and every boxed set). Of course, what happened is that the boxed sets didn't sell very well. Couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that all the people who already knew what Mystara was about owned the Gazetteers, and newbies didn't want to pick up a partial setting. *shrug*

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Originally posted by Rogue Attorney
And another utter cop-out was the switch of the Nucleus of the Spheres - "now it drains Entropy" - whatever the heck that's supposed to mean.

Originally posted by Whizbang Dustyboots
Almost certain this changed in Wrath of the Immortals, not in Kingdom of Magic.

You're right. In Wrath, the Nucleus is changed to drain from Entropy. For some strange reason, though, Kingdom of Magic switches it back to Energy. Neither of which makes all that much sense, frankly, as the Spheres aren't actual things/places, just concepts.

And don't even get me started on the changes made to the Red Steel campaign setting from the Princess Ark articles. Ugh!!!

Originally posted by Whizbang Dustyboots
Weren't the changes made by the original author?

Bruce wasn't the designer of the Red Steel boxed set, but as product manager he had a lot of input. From what I recall, much of that boxed set was done based off of his notes, so he certainly had something to do with it. The major changes, however, had to do with a perception at TSR that the cinnabryl/cinnabar empowerment seemed a bit too much like an addiction (which, admittedly, it was- which was why it was so cool). Addiction was a no-no at then Politically Correct ("Mothers Against Demons?") TSR.

So instead they replaced that concept with people who are cursed with deformity-inducing powers, and have to rely on "medicine" (cinnabar) to keep them from breaking out. Basically, they replaced Crack with Methadone.

It's like Disney making pirates more palatable by giving maidens plates of food. "They're not chasing them to rape them, only to get the food." Meanwhile there's still all sorts of looting, pillaging, burning, and slaving going on. Makes lots of sense, no?

Originally posted by Whizbang Dustyboots
As I own both the GAZ and the boxed sets, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

The boxed sets weren't perfect, but they were quite good products. The problems they had were problems they inherited from the Known World line when it was still a D&D (as opposed to AD&D) line.

Kingdom of Adventure was actually pretty good, despite some minor problems with ages and NPC descriptions (they really should have allowed Grubb to advance things there more than they did). Kingom of Magic just didn't appeal to me at all. I liked that it had a more serious tone than Gaz3 (although part of me still likes the tongue in cheek humor of it), but for my tastes, it was just too much of a rehash of something I already had, and not enough "new" information to make it worth the cost for me. I have a feeling that Monte Cook may have been hamstrung on that product like Grubb was, based on my experience with other Cook projects since, and would have liked to have seen more done with it. But it does have its merits.

BTW, Whizbang- is this Beau speaking? Haven't seen you around in a while, if so.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Five years on, they're still arguing over the most bizarre details. Mystara 3E will be ready right around the time 4E hits the shelves.

Heh. It's why I dropped out of the group a long time ago. When people get hung up on rules for Immortals, when they don't even have guidelines for mortal characters... *shrug*

Still can't believe it's been that long, though. Five years.

 

[johnsemlak]

Heh. It's why I dropped out of the group a long time ago. When people get hung up on rules for Immortals, when they don't even have guidelines for mortal characters... *shrug*

Still can't believe it's been that long, though. Five years.

I think teh basic problem with that project is that it's not really necessary anyway; you can play a 3e campaign in Mystara/The Known world fairly easily, just using old materials. It's not really all that different than using Greyhawk at present, since the only 3e sourcebook for Greyhawk is virtually devoid of 3e crunch.

IMO the main thing necessary to play would be a comprehensive reference of the dieties, with the domains, favored weapons, etc. Otherwise, since Mystara was pretty much vanilla D&D, you just need to apply 3e over it and make a few judgements here and there.

I would think the Mystara 3e project might be more successful if it had a 'bits and pieces' approach, just converting little bits (such as Mystara-based monsters, or perhaps presenting Mystaran PrCs), rathar than trying to come up with a comprehensive conversion.

 

[Davelozzi]

There was no consistency in tone from the last D&D products in 1993 to the first 2e products in 1994. Compare the last Poor Wizards Almanac to the first (and only) Joshuan's Almanac for a good example.

That's a fairly misleading example, as the PWAs were incredibly dry.

You reall think so Whizbang? I thought that the Poor Wizard's Almanacs were excellent. As far as I was concerned, they bubbled overwith cool plot ideas and hooks. Rogueattorney, the last PWA was published in 1994 as an AD&D product and was still pretty cool as far as I can remember, though I agree with you both that Joshuan's Almanac (1995) was a bomb.

I own the boxed set and have used it to run a campaign, and the racial tension is absolutely present.

I'll agree here. The Karameikos gazeteer was one of the few I never got a chance to pick up, so I can only be remembering the boxed set, and I definately recall a lot of racial tension.

 

[Mystaros]

RE: Kingdom of Adventure & Wrath of the Immortals

As Cthulhudrew mentioned, Jeff Grub had worked up a comprehensive "Guide to the Known World" book, much like what the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book is like for 3E. Unfortunately, the powers that be decided to can that and go with the boxed sets of the individual states... with about one month to go before the first product, the KoA, went to press! That's why the KoA has glitches in it here and there, as it was hacked together in a month or so. Believe me, you cannot hack together a product like that in a month and have it be the best it can be!

As for the HackWurld of Mystaros, one thing I can say about it is that the default year is 1000 AC... the same date as the default for all the Gazetteers. The WotI is somewhat controversial, and by going back to the base date of 1000 AC this allows Game AMsters to determine themselves whether they want to use a post-WotI world or not. Besides, there is an "in-campaign setting" reason the WotI hasn't happened in the HackWurld... but that will ahve to wait for the book.

 

[Estlor]

I think teh basic problem with that project is that it's not really necessary anyway; you can play a 3e campaign in Mystara/The Known world fairly easily, just using old materials. It's not really all that different than using Greyhawk at present, since the only 3e sourcebook for Greyhawk is virtually devoid of 3e crunch.

IMO the main thing necessary to play would be a comprehensive reference of the dieties, with the domains, favored weapons, etc. Otherwise, since Mystara was pretty much vanilla D&D, you just need to apply 3e over it and make a few judgements here and there.

I would think the Mystara 3e project might be more successful if it had a 'bits and pieces' approach, just converting little bits (such as Mystara-based monsters, or perhaps presenting Mystaran PrCs), rathar than trying to come up with a comprehensive conversion.

Here's my take on it. The problem with the conversion group is they're trying to translate 3e to Mystara, not Mystara to 3e. Everything has to remain identical, and if that's the case, just play OD&D.

You're right when you say the bulk of Mystara is "vanilla D&D." It's very much a generic, high fantasy setting along the same lines as Greyhawk. The main difference is Mystara doesn't take itself too seriously. There aren't a bunch of new classes, new spells, new this, new that. Just tell me how to use what I already have, and I'm fine.

That's why, when I was working on my conversion, I focused on giving Immortals Domains first (and standardized it so every Immortal got three Domains exactly). For the most part I tried to stick with Domains from the SRD or from OGL products so everyone could have a nice, standard, baseline structure to start from.

After that, I worked up some races, but it's really a minimalist approach. The OD&D elf becomes the 3e elf. The "Southern" elves in Glantri and the "Water" elves in Minroth are just minor tweaks (different weapon feats, different skill bonuses). Same with the Rot (Mordiswerg) dwarves verses the standard 3e dwarf. A halfling is a halfling is a halfling, just use flavor text to make them more like their old selves. Toss in the lupin, rakasta, tortle, a massively nerfed aranea, and the fey-born (dryads from Tall Tales of the Wee Folk) and you're done.

Want prestige classes? Okay, turn the old Glantri crafts into a prestige class, make an Air Wizard and a Fire Wizard (for Alphatians and Flaems), an elite Knight of Vanya, the Balancer (OD&D druid where you start as a cleric), the Forester (OD&D "ranger" from Dawn of the Emperors), the Rake (non theiving thief, though I gave it more flair, from Dawn of the Emperors), the Shaman (from Ethengar Khanates GAZ), Treekeeper for the sylvan elves, and make an Inheritor a five level prestige class to control gaining new legacies and bingo, you're done.

Then all you need is a mechanic for the Red Curse and Radiance Magic. Toss some monsters on top and you've got Mystara.

Come to think of it, all I really had left to do was monsters and some balancing...

 

[Estlor]

You're right. In Wrath, the Nucleus is changed to drain from Entropy. For some strange reason, though, Kingdom of Magic switches it back to Energy. Neither of which makes all that much sense, frankly, as the Spheres aren't actual things/places, just concepts.

It was probably changed back due to the status quo thing. For one, rules for draining the Sphere of Energy were firmly in place and required no additional development beyond what was done for the Glantri GAZ. Second, and a more speculative reason, how do you quantify the drain of Entropy out of the world?

One thing to keep in mind is the idea of a "Sphere" changed greatly between the time the Glantri GAZ was written and the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set revised the Immortal rules. Originally spheres WERE places as well as sources of power. Each was tied very closely to an element, an aspect of reality, and an alignment. Because Energy, the sphere of fire and chaos, was the "default" sphere for Magic-Users (like Matter was for Fighters, Time for Clerics, and Air for Thieves), it became a synonym for magic throughout the multiverse. If the power of Energy waned, magic weakened. Because the Old Ones altered the Nucleus of the Spheres to balance its ability to create new Immortals (and therefore throw off their "experiment" that the prime plane was), it had the side effect of draining magic while, at the same time, allowing the user to manipulate the very fabric of magic itself.

And switching it to drain Entropy wasn't a cop-out. Because it can dramatically alter reality, and the reality of the Prime is an attempt by the Old Ones to find a way to reproduce their number, use of the Nucleus of the Spheres must always come at a great cost. Originally it was Energy, but because of the actions of Entropy in deliberately keeping the fires of war between Rad and Ixion burning an unnaturally long time, the Old Ones changed the function of the Nucleus of the Spheres to punish them for their attempt to ruin the Old One's experiment.

Well, that and it also served to turn a potentially game-breaking situation into simple campaign flavor.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I loved The known world setting, esp galantri. The year long campiagn I played is still one of the best I have run. It was pre WoI, and quite silly. With of all the differernt cultures smashed togeather with mage tech - elemental powered heaters, magic moving services for wizards promoted to higher stations etc. I ran the secret socities like frats, semi leathal practical jokes were used as missions. I think the PCs made some kind of large disc with benches that was carried around by a bonded air elemental. King Kol was hardly the first or most ridicouls thing in the setting. I would have gadly added a kobold ??? If not for the other random changes making it far more vanilla than necessary

I was turned off by the setting changes as they tried to edit the game into 2nd ed. and quit collecting it. My college dorm had a box with most of the adventures, so I think I dumped 3 of my gazzatters into it (keeping galantri) and left them for another generation.