KotS and Irregular Party Size?
- Thread starter Khaalis
- Start date
Witchfinder General
First Post
If you use the guidelines for encounter building (DMG page 56), you would have an encounter budget of 450 XP for a party of 3 level 3 characters. This would be 500 XP for the standard party of 5 level 1 characters, so it should be close enough.
In my KoTS game, I've found that the improved attacks and defenses, increased HP and extra encounter power make a significant difference (party is currently level 3). Lower levels opponents are much less of a challenge than they were at first level.
While a party of fewer, higher levels characters may be balanced, it might be more fun if you changed the encounter makeup to allow 3 level 1 characters to play the scenario (i.e. use 60% of the encounter XP). This is fairly easy if you remove a monster or a few minions. You can also adjust the encounter XP by decreasing the levels of the opponents. See "Increasing or Decreasing Level" (DMG page 174).
I tweaked the early encounters in KoTS a bit as part of my prep work, mostly to learn the encounter design process. Great fun!
In my KoTS game, I've found that the improved attacks and defenses, increased HP and extra encounter power make a significant difference (party is currently level 3). Lower levels opponents are much less of a challenge than they were at first level.
While a party of fewer, higher levels characters may be balanced, it might be more fun if you changed the encounter makeup to allow 3 level 1 characters to play the scenario (i.e. use 60% of the encounter XP). This is fairly easy if you remove a monster or a few minions. You can also adjust the encounter XP by decreasing the levels of the opponents. See "Increasing or Decreasing Level" (DMG page 174).
I tweaked the early encounters in KoTS a bit as part of my prep work, mostly to learn the encounter design process. Great fun!
charlesatan
Explorer
For me I simply reduce the numbers of the opponents. Usually each encounter involves 5 creatures (4 minions counts as 1) so I simply remove creatures from the encounter (although I try to have one representative monster as much as possible).
Vayden
First Post
I ran through the whole of KotS while only having 3 PCs most of the time. I started them at first and just pulled monsters out of the encounters (some guidance from XP encounter totals, some just going by my gut feel for how many to pull out). Pick which monsters you pull out by group composition - if you don't have a wizard, pull minions out - if you don't have a striker, pull brutes out, etc etc. Whatever the party is weakest against, ease those monsters out first. Don't be afraid to adjust monster hp down on the fly if you find that you've messed it up. 
Gruns
Explorer
My group
Hello.
I'm DMing the module for a group of three: Dragonborn Paladin, Eladrin Warlord, Halfling Rogue.
*** Potential Spoiler Alert! ***
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I first ran them through the Kobold ruins adventure in the back of the DMG. They ran when they saw the dragon(asleep) and brought a lvl 1 Ranger with them to help kill it. They did so relatively easily, thanks to the rogue's Blinding Barrage sticking. They unloaded their Daily's plus Action points while it was blind and did a good deal of damage. Anyway, they were still level 1 after this, but I believe the first ambush of KotS got them to level 2.
So far they have only gotten through the first couple of rooms of the keep, but they have been doing ok. They had no trouble with the dragon burial site encounter, and they all survived the Irontooth fight, which can easily wipe full groups. By no means was it an easy fight, but no one died. Although when Irontooth charged into combat, attacked, Action pointed and double attacked, knocking the warlord from full hit points to single digits in one turn, it got their attention. So far I haven't adjusted the number of creatures at all. I make the enemies use decent tactics. I don't fudge dice rolls. Oddly enough, I did note that three attacks on Irontooth exactly hit his AC, which would have been misses if the attacker was level 1 instead of 2. The biggest problem for them during the fight was the wyrmpriest, that sent two of them under after all of the other kobolds (and Irontooth) were dead. That guy doesn't miss very often, and hits pretty hard.
They're having a much harder time in the keep itself, and I'm not sure why. I play the hobgoblins a little smarter than the kobolds, always flanking, and always trying to take out the weaker armored characters first. They entered the keep fresh, and after the first encounter with just the 4 hobgoblins (and a swarm of rats that did minor damage) they burned through almost all of their healing surges on the short rest after. They had to call it a day after clearing the torture/jail room. It was eerily 3E-like. Instead of the cleric being out of spells, everyone was out of Dailys and surges.
We press on tonight, and I intend to keep the encounters unadjusted. It's more fun when you expect to die every fight, but somehow don't. I should also note that all of my players have a ton of experience, and are getting better with each session as they learn their 4E powers.
Later!
Gruns
Hello.
I'm DMing the module for a group of three: Dragonborn Paladin, Eladrin Warlord, Halfling Rogue.
*** Potential Spoiler Alert! ***
-
-
-
-
-
-
I first ran them through the Kobold ruins adventure in the back of the DMG. They ran when they saw the dragon(asleep) and brought a lvl 1 Ranger with them to help kill it. They did so relatively easily, thanks to the rogue's Blinding Barrage sticking. They unloaded their Daily's plus Action points while it was blind and did a good deal of damage. Anyway, they were still level 1 after this, but I believe the first ambush of KotS got them to level 2.
So far they have only gotten through the first couple of rooms of the keep, but they have been doing ok. They had no trouble with the dragon burial site encounter, and they all survived the Irontooth fight, which can easily wipe full groups. By no means was it an easy fight, but no one died. Although when Irontooth charged into combat, attacked, Action pointed and double attacked, knocking the warlord from full hit points to single digits in one turn, it got their attention.
So far I haven't adjusted the number of creatures at all. I make the enemies use decent tactics. I don't fudge dice rolls. Oddly enough, I did note that three attacks on Irontooth exactly hit his AC, which would have been misses if the attacker was level 1 instead of 2. The biggest problem for them during the fight was the wyrmpriest, that sent two of them under after all of the other kobolds (and Irontooth) were dead. That guy doesn't miss very often, and hits pretty hard.They're having a much harder time in the keep itself, and I'm not sure why. I play the hobgoblins a little smarter than the kobolds, always flanking, and always trying to take out the weaker armored characters first. They entered the keep fresh, and after the first encounter with just the 4 hobgoblins (and a swarm of rats that did minor damage) they burned through almost all of their healing surges on the short rest after. They had to call it a day after clearing the torture/jail room. It was eerily 3E-like. Instead of the cleric being out of spells, everyone was out of Dailys and surges.
We press on tonight, and I intend to keep the encounters unadjusted. It's more fun when you expect to die every fight, but somehow don't. I should also note that all of my players have a ton of experience, and are getting better with each session as they learn their 4E powers.
Later!
Gruns
Nail
First Post
No.
The issue isn't Power. The isssue is "number of actions". 3 PCs simply have fewer actions per round.
Nail
First Post
Good post!
....and telling. Your group of three quickly runs through dailies and healing surges and action points, all of which a larger party would use more sparingly.
My first group had 5 PCs, and the players are great tacticians. Given those attributes, they were able to do about 7 encounters before needing an extended rest.
Thanee
First Post
Playing it currently with a party of 3 PCs and 1 NPCs (a Fighter, a Warlord and two Clerics
- happened because two players moved away and so will be around only once a month or so, and those two played the Rogue and the Wizard).Anyways... even with this rather one-sided party (though, healing isn't the worst side to be a bit one-sided at) of just four, they manage quite well. Since they get more XP they level faster and it seems quite balanced. Encounters are tough sometimes, but that's alright. No actual casualities on the player side so far, though plenty of unconsciousness.
Bye
Thanee
After reviewing the comments, if I end up using the KotS material, I will need to add an NPC. As it stands the party consists of an Elf Rogue, an Eladrin Wizard and a Human Fighter. I'll make a Warlord or Cleric NPC and either ghost run it as DM, or give it as a pre-gen PC if by some chance we manage to pull a 4th player.
However, I want them to survive and to feel somewhat 'accomplished' so I'll have them at 3rd level and adjust the encounters in the KotS material up a bit. After looking at it, I think it will be more fun for the players to increase the encounters in the KotS material to adjust to their level than to take the material as-is and have to reduce the encounters to match a small 1st level party.
However, I am still trying to gauge the time involved in running KotS. This will be a 1 weekend only run. I am guessing at about 16 hours of game time. I am worried that 16 hours won't be enough to run even 75% of KotS though. How many hours have people put into this when running it?
However, I want them to survive and to feel somewhat 'accomplished' so I'll have them at 3rd level and adjust the encounters in the KotS material up a bit. After looking at it, I think it will be more fun for the players to increase the encounters in the KotS material to adjust to their level than to take the material as-is and have to reduce the encounters to match a small 1st level party.
However, I am still trying to gauge the time involved in running KotS. This will be a 1 weekend only run. I am guessing at about 16 hours of game time. I am worried that 16 hours won't be enough to run even 75% of KotS though. How many hours have people put into this when running it?
frankthedm
First Post
Make the players play an extra character each. it is much easier to add 20% more monsters than subtract 40% and tweak for a party missing key roles.
