KOTS: The After Action Report

[MerricB]

Very nice AAR, Lizard!

Let's face it, casters are much less flexible and customizable than they were in 3e, even at level 1.

Hmm... I'm not so sure about at level 1 there. Admittedly, the KotS wizard isn't helped by the omission of the Mage Hand cantrip (one of the purest versions of Awesome in 4e), but I don't really remember 3e Wizards being that great at level 1. Better compared to 2e, but being able to cast sleep (or similar) 2/day and then having to rest is a fair difference from the 4e Wizard who keeps going for quite a while longer. There were only a handful of spells in the original 3e PHB that a Wizard would bother preparing at 1st level.

If you have a pregen 1st level character in 3e, it'll feel pretty restrictive to you.

EDIT: How does the rogue get TWO dice of sneak attack at first level? That +2d8 was VICIOUS!

Yeah. The Rogue's feat to make it d8s instead of d6s is also nice. I suppose the tradeoff is that they're a lot more vulnerable out there...

Cheers!

 

[mach1.9pants]

Great review, thank you. I am glad you coming to be more positive about 4E.
I am a 4E fan (from what I have seen) and got KotS as early as possible with the intent to play ASAP. However, the lack of the full rules has made me change my mind. My group is positive but we want the full wack before we seriously play 4E. We have run a couple of previews but that was with the PHB-lite and just a bunch of fights. To devote a period of time to do a (even simple dungeon crawl) module, without the full rules to get the most out of it, is a mistake IMO.
I agree with you that (having read KotS) it is neither a RPG/DnD intro or a good 'this'll convert you to 4E, you previous edition doubters!' type thing.

Oh and this is a great idea

In post game conversation, we realized that since "minion" is a narrative term of art, "killing" one can be as well. When you "kill" a minion, you render him a non-threat. This can mean he's dead, or unconscious, or just saw you will kick his ass and he ran away as fast as feet could carry him. The important thing is, he's out of the fight and not a threat, now or in the future -- a minion whose "death" is narrated as "He runs away" will NOT summon guards, alert authorities, or otherwise act against the PCs; for story purposes, his threat has been eliminated just as if he had died.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Thanks Lizard. I value your opinion on this, even if we are likely on different sides of teh 4e/3.x divide.

 

[Rechan]

Lizard, I'm really happy to see this report, and very pleased to hear that you seem satisfied, and gave 4e a good chance. You sound positive!

The biggest negative was the nerfing of casters. The person playing the wizard felt seriously weak, and was really annoyed by the lack of non-combat/utility spells, general spell selection, and so on.

Pregenerated character, rather than looking at all the available spells and choosing.

If you were playing 3.5, and I gave youa pregenerated wizard with Shield, Magic Missile and Expeditious Retreat, and you'd never seen what other spells there were, I imagine you'd say you felt it was damn nerfed, there were no utility spells, and it was all about fightin', no?

Also, there is one thing missing: rituals. From a report by someone looking at a PHB, wizards start the game with 3 rituals, which are your "out of combat" spells. So, I think that should address issues soon.

I actually think the D&D XP fighter is more interesting than the KotS fighter; the former can push opponents with Tide of Iron, move around (passing attack), and attack anyone that shifts away. The KotS fighter is all damage focused, and the only trick it has is knocking someone prone.

I feel your pain, because from the sound of it, you really tried to explain the situation and were almost a 4e cheerleader. Good show, valiant effort. You're just going to have to wait.

There were other, subtler, factors. No one had any emotional investment in their characters or the story. The things that give a game meaning, that elevate play above the mechanics, were absent. There was no desire, really, to finish the module and find out what happens; it was a bog-standard plot.

It's a module with pregens. I don't think people generally get emotionally attached to characters they didn't create.

I mean, look at The Sunless Citadel. It's just another boring dungeon crawl. The only reason people remember that thing is because of Meepo. And that's because he was given a personality. Which I believe a certain NPC is given a personality in there (at least, according to a developer).

 

[Lizard]

Lack of stats for townsfolk in a dungeoneering module is pretty much par for the course. Look at some 3E modules; at most you might get "Fred: 5th level cleric" or "Joe: 10th level warrior".

Like I said, I don't know from modules, so I don't know what to expect. "Village of Hommlet" had, I think, stats for the local yokels, and that's the era my module knowledge dates from.

IAE, from a review/report perspective, I have to review what was there, not what was in the online PHB or what I could infer from personal experience. The players wanted to do the usual PC things once they got to town; the module as printed gave little mechanical support for this. Them's the facts. (If this had been a real game session in a real campaign, they would have been in town for at least 4-6 hours of playtime and picked up a half-dozen pet NPCs to hang around and generate plot threads, but that's my group for you...I did try to hustle them to the guys with the big yellow exclamation points, but it's like herding cats...they also decided to search the mentor's room at the inn, something obvious and not covered by the module, but it was easy enough to plant the Big Honkin' Clue there for them. I did have fun playing the Crusty Old Man as a sort of idiot savant who could tell you when the oak tree outside the inn was planted, though.)

 

[hong]

A more recent point of comparison might be Sunless Citadel. IIRC you know that the village contains a 5th level cleric, a bunch of 2nd-3rd level guys, and that's about it. No statblocks except for the people with red circles around their feet.

 

[Vempyre]

adding to my 1st post : enjoyed the report btw

 

[Rechan]

Uhm...from the rules.

I was pretty sure, based on the Rogue preview, that you got 1d6 SA at first level, with backstabber raising it to 1d8. I didn't see a feat/power that made it 2d8, but that's what it said on the sheet and that's how we ran it...

From the Rogue Excerpt:

Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.

Level 	Sneak Attack Damage
1st–10th 	+2d6
11th–20th 	+3d6
21st–30th 	+5d6

 

[Torchlyte]

Uhm...from the rules.

I was pretty sure, based on the Rogue preview, that you got 1d6 SA at first level, with backstabber raising it to 1d8. I didn't see a feat/power that made it 2d8, but that's what it said on the sheet and that's how we ran it...

The person playing the rogue was sure happy.

It's 2d6.

At 11th it becomes 3d6.

At 21st it becomes 5d6.

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[Blackeagle]

In post game conversation, we realized that since "minion" is a narrative term of art, "killing" one can be as well. When you "kill" a minion, you render him a non-threat. This can mean he's dead, or unconscious, or just saw you will kick his ass and he ran away as fast as feet could carry him. The important thing is, he's out of the fight and not a threat, now or in the future -- a minion whose "death" is narrated as "He runs away" will NOT summon guards, alert authorities, or otherwise act against the PCs; for story purposes, his threat has been eliminated just as if he had died.

This is pretty much what I said in one of the minion threads. Nice to see that you've come around.