D&D 5E L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D

Tovec

Explorer
I thought what was done with the Abyss was one of the better notions of the 4e cosmology, coupling the ephemeral nature of the Elemental Chaos with the malicious intent of Tharizdum to create a true heart of darkness, where the multiverse spirals away into entropy and oblivion.

The 4e cosmology has several great themes, and even ramp up the confict between Law and Chaos, even though these forces aren't explicitly included in the alignment chart. The cosmology works as a great river, flowing from *somewhere* beyond even the Astral Sea (a place of eternal creation). Then you have the Astral Sea, where things are permanent/eternal/immortal. Where the Astral Sea touches the Elemental Chaos, you have the Material Plane, where things persist but change, evolve but remain the same, where opposits clash but remain in balance. Beyond the Material Plane you have the Elemental Chaos, where things do not persist, but also aren't wasted (everything turns into something else, in a constant recycling ring). And beyond the Elemental Chaos, you have the Abyss (a place of eternal destruction), opposite not to the Astral Sea, but to the place *beyond* the Astral Sea.

It's a rather elegant cosmological construct that still gives you all the blocks to rebuild previous cosmologies just by changing the pieces around.

This post is great. I mean I disagree with the basic assumptions that go into it but it crystallizes a few things in my mind very well and so I thank you Klaus.

So, in 4e, it goes from super-astral to astral to material to elemental and abyss. It goes from "pure creation" to "entropy" with some stops in between. The elemental plane then becomes a place where elements break down.

Compare that to pre-4e versions, where (unless I am completely missing my mark) the elemental planes were the building blocks of the material plane. They were inner because the were used as the blocks that formed everything else.

Those are very different, and you can't just "rebuild previous cosmologies" from that.

It is also opposite of what CN's Limbo was, which was an outer plane of creation but of temporary creation. In that way, when you merge CN into CE, because CE is the only real alignment for chaotics, you go from creation to "universal destruction". Fundamentally missing what chaos meant for YEARS (since the wind dukes, I believe) and saying ALL chaos is demons and their chaos-evil that destroys. (Also ignores the supreme-law stagnation thing but that one is less obvious.)
 

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Klaus

First Post
The elemental plane then becomes a place where elements break down.

Not "break down". As in pre-4e, the elements *are* the building blocks of creation (to the point where it was the elementals that created the world), but it is "temporary creation" (as you described Limbo). It was the "timeless" energy of the Astral Sea that gave permanence to the Material World, preventing the world from being unmade and remade time and again. You can even have the classic single-element only Inner Planes as the region of the Elemental Chaos closest to the world, as side effect of the mingling with the Astral Sea's stability (by the same token, you can have a region of the Astral Sea closest to the Elemental Chaos being stormier, with elemental islands floating about).
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The 4e cosmology gets a lot of flack, but it was a solid cosmology. The reason it got a lot of flack was because it tried to be THE Cosmology, instead of just A cosmology, which earned it the unbearable burden of having to be everything to all D&D players, something I don't think any one piece of any fiction is really capable of.

It's a good system, it's just not the right system for everyone, because no system is the right system for everyone. And it happened to not be the right system for a lot of people who thought the old system was the right system.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
The 4e cosmology gets a lot of flack, but it was a solid cosmology. The reason it got a lot of flack was because it tried to be THE Cosmology, instead of just A cosmology, which earned it the unbearable burden of having to be everything to all D&D players, something I don't think any one piece of any fiction is really capable of.

But that's not true. Nearly every roleplaying game in existence has a single setting and cosmology, which it expects all players to adhere to.

D&D is practically unique in that it /doesn't/. The core setting is just guidance for new players, because the designers know dungeon masters immediately set out to create their own worlds and cosmologies as soon as they've got their feet under them. That's been a thing since the earliest days.

Why the core setting infuriates people so much is a little beyond me.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
But that's not true. Nearly every roleplaying game in existence has a single setting and cosmology, which it expects all players to adhere to.

D&D is practically unique in that it /doesn't/. The core setting is just guidance for new players, because the designers know dungeon masters immediately set out to create their own worlds and cosmologies as soon as they've got their feet under them. That's been a thing since the earliest days.

Why the core setting infuriates people so much is a little beyond me.

You seem to be ignoring D&D's unique place as the definitive tabletop RPG, the thing that created the genre, a genre that is unique in some large part due to the intense localism that the games in the genre exhibit.

Sure, Shadowrun has a strong setting. And D&D should have its own strong settings (FR, Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft...). But D&D itself is not really a setting, nor should it be. FR should have a cosmology you're expected to use if you play in FR. D&D should not have a cosmology you are expected to use if you play D&D. Though it should have plenty of example cosmologies you can use when you're not interested in whipping up your own, none of those cosmologies should be assumed as part of typical gameplay.
 

Orius

Legend
The fact that Planescape was ham-handed about its incorporation of material from other D&D settings that wanted nothing to do with it is not bias, it's reality. The Dark Sun material goes out of its way to cut the setting off from the then-established Great Wheel cosmology, and the Planescape material just keeps reeling it back in.

Planescape didn't intrude itself on Dark Sun all that much as I remember. Yes, the two were officially connected, as was every other 2e setting, but Planescape generally said that connections to Athas tended to be rare and/or difficult to use. This besically kept the two setting from interacting too much, while leaving things open enough for a DM who might want to use some sort of connection. And for DMs like me who didn't play in Dark Sun, it didn't matter much, except as a curiosity.

Honestly, I think Planescape was less an offender here than Spelljammer was. Spelljammer, after all, had 3 accessories connecting it to Greyhawk, the Realms, and Dragonlance. Spelljammer wasn't really a good fit for DL, might not have belonged in Greyhawk, and only really fit in the Realms in very specific places like Halruaa if that.

Planescape though didn't have much in the way of crossover material like this with the exception of a FR adventure or two. Mostly when it talks about the other settings, it's about how they're connected to the planes and such like that, stuff that's useful for a DM that's looking to use it with another stting.

That behavior is the source of most of the resentment the community feels toward Planescape and why the setting is so controversial today. If they'd just left well enough alone maybe there wouldn't be such backlash today.

I suspect the fact that anything about the planes was shunted off to Planescape from 1994-1998 and official material saying "you need Planescape" for anything probably has something to do with it to. That and it kept rolling with the removal then renaming of demons and devils, though PS made some decent lemonade out of that -- "Don't use the 'd-words' around the fiends, they're racial slurs and it pisses them off (not like it matters if you're just going to kill them ;))."


The biggest example for me remains the divisions between the Ethereal and its coterminous planes and the Astral and its coterminous planes. It has many consequences, but perhaps the most visible is spellcasting. Playing a wizard or cleric in Planescape is a nightmare (admittedly, an entertaining nightmare for some), because there's this arbitrary (in my opinion) split between the two halves of the cosmology. Ethereal spells don't work on the Outer Planes. Astral spells don't work on the Inner Planes. Elemental spells "work" on the Outer Planes (for some reason), but are /colored/ by the plane they're in. Every Outer Plane has its own list of spell school effects. Clerics lose an insane amount of power when traveling to the Inner Planes. Powerful magic doesn't work, full stop, in the "center" of the Outlands. And ALL of this can be hand-waved if your character is carrying the right "key."

This entire system is incredibly thematic, which is great; unfortunately it is also monstrously and unnecessarily complicated.

Probably that's the reason it didn't show up in the 3e MotP, it IS pretty damn complicated, and somewhat confusing for the DM too. It does help to codify some rules about how magic was affected by planar travel that appeared here and there earlier in the edition (at least the Wizard's Handbook had stuff like this). But that's less Planescape and more 2e's obsession with how unbalancing magic can be IMO, and the edition's various attempts to reign it in. Then 3e takes off the restrictions, eventually resulting in the godliness of Tier 1, and creating DM nightmares everywhere.

But that's not true. Nearly every roleplaying game in existence has a single setting and cosmology, which it expects all players to adhere to.

D&D is practically unique in that it /doesn't/. The core setting is just guidance for new players, because the designers know dungeon masters immediately set out to create their own worlds and cosmologies as soon as they've got their feet under them. That's been a thing since the earliest days.

Why the core setting infuriates people so much is a little beyond me.

Probably because of DMs and homebrewing. The game long gave DMs a lot of leeway in deciding How Things Work in each of their personal campaigns. When D&D starts throwing in its own setting concepts pretty heavily into core though, it creates certain player expectations for a homebrewing DM to deal with. That's why there was a lot of bitching over it in 4e, every time the rules make a specific reference to the background, either the DM has to find a way to shoehorn it into a setting (and a long-running campaign won't necessarily find it easy), or toss the stuff out and have to deal with players how think it's still there.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
The 4e cosmology gets a lot of flack, but it was a solid cosmology. The reason it got a lot of flack was because it tried to be THE Cosmology, instead of just A cosmology, which earned it the unbearable burden of having to be everything to all D&D players, something I don't think any one piece of any fiction is really capable of.

It's a good system, it's just not the right system for everyone, because no system is the right system for everyone. And it happened to not be the right system for a lot of people who thought the old system was the right system.

I'm fair sure I don't even have a right system for ME, I just have them for individual campaigns.
 

Tovec

Explorer
Probably because of DMs and homebrewing. The game long gave DMs a lot of leeway in deciding How Things Work in each of their personal campaigns. When D&D starts throwing in its own setting concepts pretty heavily into core though, it creates certain player expectations for a homebrewing DM to deal with. That's why there was a lot of bitching over it in 4e, every time the rules make a specific reference to the background, either the DM has to find a way to shoehorn it into a setting (and a long-running campaign won't necessarily find it easy), or toss the stuff out and have to deal with players how think it's still there.

This, I think, is exactly the problem.

Having a metasetting that people can use or discard is all well and good. Having it as a base assumption for WotC brand for creators to use when making up new material works fine too, as every DM would otherwise have to make everything up on their own if they did not. The problem is when it is tied to the rules. When it is too specific. When you have to know the history of the planes, or their relations in order to use your spells. When the gods have to be assumed to have a specific structure instead of allowing DMs to make their own.

That was what 4e did poorly and what the 3e material did well IMHO. It allowed options, but allowed versatility. It had a default but did not enforce it. I disagree with KM and others that DnD can work without a core. It needs a core/default/base or whatever you want to call it, to function. It should not force or automatically assume you are going to be using that core in order to run the game.

In that way it makes perfect sense for them to create the cosmology they have now. It gives them the most room to grow new ideas, invalidates as little as possible. Gives inexperienced DMs the tools they need to make the game-fiction make sense and allow things to have a cohesive whole. We'll see if it allows those with competency to create their own, and how "hands off" it can be going forward. That will be the real trick, everything else is just speculation and whining over what the core is.

I do agree with KM, along with disagreeing with him prior, that the problem with 4e's model was assuming "the" cosmology instead of "a" cosmology. I can understand this is the same problem that others have with planescape.

But, for my money, there is no way I would have thought to create two kinds of fiends fighting against each other, let alone a third. Or come up with the nine alignments, which gives me a lot more to work with than a single axis. Yes it creates problems when these are hard-baked into the assumptions of players and DMs so that changing these rules is viewed as not allowed, but I appreciate it when they put the effort into making these things up, as I never would have come up with the ideas on my own. That is what I need a game company to do, not so sure WotC is going to do that going forward and it worries me.
 

Klaus

First Post
That was what 4e did poorly and what the 3e material did well IMHO.

Can you give some examples on why you think this? Because it's certainly not in line with my experience.

Let's take demons, for instance. In 4e, they're "elementals", because the arose in the 4e cosmology as elemental creatures corrupted by the Heart of the Abyss. But suppose I wanted to move the Abyss to the Outer Planes (placing it on the Astral Sea or whatnot). I can simply erase "elementals", write in "immortal" and not a single thing else needs to change. In 3e, if I were to turn demons from "outsider" to "elemental", a whole list of racial characteristics, HD, saves and other assorted stuff would change, because creature type was directly tied to how monsters were built. This makes the default assumptions of 3e much more enforced by the rules than in 4e.
 

Tovec

Explorer
Actually, no I can't give examples. As I understand it I'm not allowed to quote sections from 4e to post to boards like these. Plus it is hard to prove the breadth of such things without counting literally every instance in the books.

Further proof of what I'm saying probably relates more to how much background information is found in each of the core books. I mean PHB, MM, DMG. How many times do you reference each of the planes, planar structure, blood war, sigil, the specific homes of the gods (ie. what planes they are on), who their allies are, what the relations are, the history of the world, and so on. Do that for both 4e and 3e. It is less in 3e. PHB alone shows that. I mean in 3e you don't even get told who Mordikenien is, let alone why the spells are named after him. Which means, as I and mine long though, that it was just the name of the spell - it wasn't a piece of lore we were tied to.

That's good by the way. I see no reason why it is necessary to explain why there are three kinds of fiends in the core books. None. Having three kinds is good enough for those who want it. It is simple enough for them to be three flavours of the same people if DMs want it and it can be used as the assumption of how to expand to having the full blood war if they want that too.

They don't need to put this stuff in the core books, they can relegate it to additional books with specific themes. But on the other hand, it helps if the option is there in the first place so they are not ONLY in those themed-books. It also helps if there is a default so that writers can add to a body of fiction and create a cohesive whole instead of just adding whatever the they feel like - a problem with the later MMs (in 3e) from what I saw. Same with some of the later splat books (lore in Bo9S, I'm looking at you).


Also, converting a demon from outsider to elemental is actually pretty easy in 3e actually. Converting to fey, humanoid or something is harder. But outsider to elemental is fairly simple, just add the elemental type.. subtype? to the tagline and say it has elemental traits. The fiction tied to how the monster operates is what I was talking about.
 

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