[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

[GMforPowergamers]

I agree. Quite a few memorable moments have happened in our games from a clever player who's wizard had run out of uber-effective spells.

we are not even on the same page here... Uber-effective spells?? Clever players ??

no I am talking avrage players with average spells, and no hp and no AC and no attack bonus...

I mean Andel picking up a 2e 1st level wizard, having magic missle once per day, having 4hp a 10 AC and an adjusted 20 thac0 with a thrown dagger or an edjusted 21 thac0 with his staff...

I am talking Ross playing his wizard in 3e with a 14 AC with mage armor (that lasted 1 hour) and having 1 ray of frost and 1 magic missle, and a staff with +1 to hit.

I can exchange stories of very clever PCs of ANY class doing amazing things, I can tell stories of otimizers and the best spells... that is not what this is about...

 

[Melkor]

The problem can be solved by makeing all classes contribute to the game.

With all due respect, GMforPowergamers, there are those of us who don't see it as a problem to begin with.

 

[billd91]

is getting very old very quicky, and this is not just to you or even on this topic... but it is SUCH BS... "Your problem is becuse your players are not smart enough" "Your problem can be solved with Better players" is BS
The problem can be solved by makeing all classes contribute to the game.

Not from where I'm sitting. A player who feels blocked from doing anything worthwhile in previous editions is probably also the kind of player who would feel like he can't do anything in differently balanced systems like 4e. And I think you see it plenty around here too. If an action isn't approaching optimal or not associated with the way they want to play, people will reject it as not being worthwhile to do. And that may not be the case.

I don't see it necessarily as a question of being smart. It's more a question of inflexibility to circumstances, I think, particularly negative or limiting circumstances.

 

[Incenjucar]

With all due respect, GMforPowergamers, there are those of us who don't see it as a problem to begin with.

There are always people who something something.

The game has to be successful. They have to go with what is most likely to appeal to the most people of the audience they believe they have identified.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

With all due respect, GMforPowergamers, there are those of us who don't see it as a problem to begin with.

With respect, I don't care.

See it looks like this (from my point of view)

"My toyota lost control and excelerated"
"Yea mine too"
"Me three"

"Mine never did"
"I have been through 3 toyatoa's in 28 years and it never happend"

"See some people don't see it as a problem"

in this case I can tell you, Not everyone sees it, and to be honnest I hope you never do, but what does it hurt to fix a problem?
that is like wanting Norton's anti virus not to update until AFTER you get a virus, becuse if you haven't yet you don't think you will.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm 110% certain that "bonus spell slots for high ability scores" are gone from the game.

I like everything said. Even scrolls being "damn, I wish I had lightning bolt and not fireball prepped" insurance.

I wouldn't be surprised if each level is capped at 4 spells tops. A 20th level wizard has 40 spells to burn; some effective due to high level, some weaksauce due to low level. Along with cantrips, this sounds like a good amount.

 

[billd91]

With respect, I don't care.

See it looks like this (from my point of view)

So... the class balance issue in D&D looks like it could cause a car to crash into a crowd of people and kill them?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not from where I'm sitting. A player who feels blocked from doing anything worthwhile in previous editions is probably also the kind of player who would feel like he can't do anything in differently balanced systems like 4e. And I think you see it plenty around here too. If an action isn't approaching optimal or not associated with the way they want to play, people will reject it as not being worthwhile to do. And that may not be the case.

I don't see it necessarily as a question of being smart. It's more a question of inflexibility to circumstances, I think, particularly negative or limiting circumstances.

Ok, well I guess me and my groups should stop role playing, we only have 6 DMs about 2 dozen players (incuding over lap with DMs) and are totaly doing it wrong.

I guess it was chris, he was the evil one, he was an optimizer and new all the right spells, and all the creative work arounds... he started it. BUt I guess the role playing hobby is so big and strong that a few less players and DMs wont hurt

OH wait no this is suposed to be about inclusion not who is better... This is again BS, my players are not rejecting options becuse they are a little less, in fact the problem is that some choose by flavor and others my mechanics and sit at the same table.

an AC 32 warden who can twice per encounter boost that to a 40 who has an attack bonus that can hit himself, for a boat load of damage, at the same table with a AC 19 shaman with an attack bonus of +14 and almost no damage to speak of...

 

[grimslade]

So... the class balance issue in D&D looks like it could cause a car to crash into a crowd of people and kill them?

You never saw the GenCon of Ought Four, bodies everywhere and a cleric with war and travel domains covered in gore. I still have nightmares.

 

[Incenjucar]

So... the class balance issue in D&D looks like it could cause a car to crash into a crowd of people and kill them?

Well let's face it not everyone who plays the game is perfectly balanced so if the game gets shelved indefinitely there's a non-zero chance...