D&D 5E L&L - D&D Next Goals, Part One

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
While I like to read about the fundamental goals given in this week's article, the really interesting question will hopefuly answered next week: will the development team try to make a game encompassing different grades of compexity at one table or will it (just) be a tool set to construct your groups game with?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Li Shenron

Legend
I for one am getting frustrated at hearing yet more about their big-picture goals when we've heard it all before. I want to hear some more details, darnit!

Yes, but I think it's VERY important that they keep checking the current iteration against the original design goals, and this kind of blog articles are a way for us to check that they are doing so, thus this article is very good news to me.

It's so easy to get carried away in designing additions or tinkering with numbers and mechanics, and lose sight of the original purposes, then later have a product that is neat but mismatched with such purposes, and wonder why it isn't selling (that is, assuming the purposes themselves were good ones, which is not always the case). And that's not just for game design, it happens all the time in many industries.

My favorite part of the article is:This is exactly what I was expecting/hoping for. Just a little red box called Dungeons & Dragons (not "beginner box," not "basic set") that you can pick up at Toys 'R' Us or Target, and there you go, now you own the game of Dungeons & Dragons. PHB-style stuff can then be a separate product.

Actually I got exactly the opposite from the article... to me it sounds like they won't make a separate introductory product but instead the CORE product (maybe ONE book only) will be the starting point for everyone. Or maybe this is also what you mean?
 

variant

Adventurer
That paragraph is vague to say the least. If we are talking about a red box scenario where you need to buy more books to bring it on par to later editions of D&D, I do not like that idea.
 
Last edited:

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
Actually I got exactly the opposite from the article... to me it sounds like they won't make a separate introductory product but instead the CORE product (maybe ONE book only) will be the starting point for everyone. Or maybe this is also what you mean?
My thinking was more along the lines that the introductory box set is the core product, and the hardbacks would be marketed as advanced supplements.

In other words, the Red Box is core and the PHB is optional. The Red Box doesn't assume you'll buy the PHB, and neither do adventures or further supplements.

[I assume it'll be a box because you can't market a hardback book to non-hobby-gamers, and anyway it'll need to include a set of dice.]

I like this idea not just because I like simple rules, but also because I believe the introductory product shouldn't let on that it's an introductory product. A consumer's eyes glaze over when they see a product branded as a "starter set." They infer (correctly) that that means the company expects them to buy more stuff in order to get the full experience. This is necessary for something like Magic, but not for something like D&D.
 

variant

Adventurer
My thinking was more along the lines that the introductory box set is the core product, and the hardbacks would be marketed as advanced supplements.

In other words, the Red Box is core and the PHB is optional. The Red Box doesn't assume you'll buy the PHB, and neither do adventures or further supplements.

[I assume it'll be a box because you can't market a hardback book to non-hobby-gamers, and anyway it'll need to include a set of dice.]

I like this idea not just because I like simple rules, but also because I believe the introductory product shouldn't let on that it's an introductory product. A consumer's eyes glaze over when they see a product branded as a "starter set." They infer (correctly) that that means the company expects them to buy more stuff in order to get the full experience. This is necessary for something like Magic, but not for something like D&D.

A supplement would mean that you need to buy the box set before you buy these additional books and you will be referencing multiple books just to create a character as complex as a 1e, 2e, 3e, or 4e character. I can't imagine any veteran D&D player would like that scenario.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
A supplement would mean that you need to buy the box set before you buy these additional books and you will be referencing multiple books just to create a character as complex as a 1e, 2e, 3e, or 4e character. I can't imagine any veteran D&D player would like that scenario.

Well, ideally, the advanced products would be self-contained as well, so you could just buy the three hardbacks if you wanted to. After all, I doubt they would omit Orcs from the Monster Manual just because they were already in the core game.
 
Last edited:

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
I can't believe they're going the "Red Box" route once again. They didn't have much luck with the previous one so I don't know what's going to be different this time. I think they need to stop aiming for non-hobbyists and just focus on gamers. Boardgames are what you find at Toys R Us and Wal-Mart.
 

Echohawk

Shirokinukatsukami fan
I can't believe they're going the "Red Box" route once again. They didn't have much luck with the previous one so I don't know what's going to be different this time.
What makes you think that they didn't have much luck with the previous Red Box?

I can see how it is very tempting to jump from "D&D Essentials can't have sold very well or D&D Next wouldn't be a work in progress" to "the Essentials Red Box didn't sell well", but that's not necessarily true. For all we know, the Essentials red box sold well enough, but there simply weren't many buyers who progresses to the other Essentials products.

Heck, this section of Mike Mearls's column seem to heavily imply that that's the case:

Mike Mearls said:
Do a lot of new people try D&D every year? Yes. In fact it attracts far more people than you would guess. The real strength of D&D has always been in its ability to pull in new players. But what we noticed starting a few years back is that even though people were seeking the introductory product, fewer and fewer players were moving deeper into additional material such as the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
I really liked this part:
Back in the early 1980s, the game rules were accessible and play was supported with a lot of adventures. Since then, the game has become increasingly complex. New editions have added more rules, more options, and more detail. Even if one area of the game became simpler, another area became far more difficult to grasp. We need to reverse that trend and make a version of D&D that new players can pick up with ease and that existing players can continue to play by utilizing a wealth of world-class adventure content.
I think that the adventure support for 4e has been abysmal. Not many adventures and really questionable quality. I don't feel like playing Pathfinder (it's too similar to 3.5 which I don't want to go back to), but the amount of adventures made for the system makes it really interesting. There are something like five adventure paths and lots of individual adventures.

I think they have seen that the single-minded focus they have had on expanding the core of the system has been detrimental to the game. There are like 30 books that are "Core". It's just too much in my opinion. I hope they will go the path of dividing the rules into three books like with basic d&d, with the red, blue and purple(?) book.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
I've only played since 2nd edition, but there has been a contrast in the way in which supplementary material has been introduced to the game across this time. I remember that for 2nd edition, the core rules were there, with plenty of suggestions for customisation in the DMG and indeed built into the PHB (clerics, I'm looking at you). Supplements that we bought as a group either introduced new classes (Tome of Magic) or modified the fundamental rules of the game to make it more complex (Skills and Powers, Combat and Tactics). There were a few elements of 'splat' to be found in additional spells and kits - we never invested in the Complete X books because they were far more along these lines.

3rd edition came around and the core books also felt complete. However, there was a greater focus on splat, with prestige classes and feats providing an avenue to create and sell new stuff very quickly. The introduction of new elements, such as classes, felt less meaningful because they were chapter 1 in a book full of splat. I don't think they expanded on the rules, or changed the complexity of the game to any significant degree either. Unearthed Arcana was so popular because it finally did this. I suppose you might point at 3rd party supplements, for there were many, as providing this support.

4th edition was the first edition where to me, it felt like they had tried to fit so much into the PHB, they had deliberately set aside portions of classes for later splat books. Like the current trend in the videogame industry for downloadable content, they had already created the additional material, but withheld it as part of a marketing decision. This, as with day one DLC, irks me, because I would have been much happier with four core classes completely fleshed out and books to introduce new classes later. The splat content was expanded a little bit here too, the loss of prestige classes more than made up for by powers, paragon paths and epic destinies. Magic items too became splat, since the crafting system was modified and de-integrated from the magic system. When new classes were published, they didn't particularly innovate mechanically, and it took until Essentials to see that sort of material.

So what I'd like to see for 5th edition is a core that has the base classes fully fleshed out. I don't want to have to buy a splat book later in order to have interesting archery options, or illusion spells. I'd like new classes to use the core systems (fighting and magic, when they perfect them) and throw their own mechanical innovations in where sensible. I'm also looking forward more to books that completely change the game, the famed modules, as I think they offer the most interesting material. Never again do I want a pure splat book, that just gives you more backgrounds, feats and abilities for an existing set of classes - at least offer new mechanical innovation within those classes. If you write a wizarding book, damn well offer entirely new casting systems. More adventures, yes, I want complete campaigns that cover 10 levels, that aren't just railroads - is it too much to ask for something replayable? You can use the same principle plot, but subplots can exist in numbers, and random events might alter the approach of the party to the main plot, or indeed the backgrounds and ethos of said characters might do the same.
 

Remove ads

Top