L&L Turning & Churning

[Falling Icicle]

I like alot of the ideas presented in the article, but there are a few caveats:

1. I do NOT want to see specific turn mechanics in every single undead creature's stats. Monster stat blocks should not be cluttered with information for specific class abilities! It would be much better to include this stuff in the turn undead rules itself.

2. All of the things listed are basically save-or-die effects. This was a big problem I had with pre-4e versions of turn undead. It either didn't work at all or it made the entire encounter trivial. Plus, I never want to play "chase down the fleeing undead" again. I think it would be best if turn undead did radiant damage and had an extra effect, like making the undead "stunned" for a short time plus kicking them out of possessed bodies if theyre a ghost, breaking a vampire's charm, etc.

3. As others have said, I don't think Turn Undead should even be a class ability for Clerics in general. Either make it a domain power for gods of good, light, healing, etc. or make it a spell. The large majority of deities shouldn't care enough about undead to grant an ability like this. At the very least, give players the option to exchange Turn Undead for something else.

 

[CM]

I always felt that 4e turning was a little boring. I'd like to see TU usable at-will but require sustaining. Rather than have a unique TU effect line for each undead creature, I'd like to see a list with a menu of effects that the creature would suffer. You could even have multiple effects with different DCs. For example, a simple minion skeleton could be Flee DC 10, Vaporize DC 15. A shadow could be Withdraw DC 15 , Banish DC 20.

Example effects:

Flee: The creature moves as fast as it can away from the cleric. If it no longer has line of sight to the cleric, it is immobilized and can save each round to end the effect.

Withdraw: The creature moves to at least 20' away from the cleric and can come no closer, but is not otherwise impeded.

Banish: The creature is removed from play and can save each round to end the effect.

Vaporize: The creature is destroyed.

This keeps it relatively simple without having to inflate undead stat blocks too much while still adding some flavorful options.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't like this highly specific notion of "turning undead". I would prefer a more generic channel energy-type thing. Undead could certainly have specific effects from it as described, but I think the ability should start off in a more generic form because undead turning is really campaign dependent.

 

[Hassassin]

I don't like this highly specific notion of "turning undead". I would prefer a more generic channel energy-type thing. Undead could certainly have specific effects from it as described, but I think the ability should start off in a more generic form because undead turning is really campaign dependent.

I don't think "campaign dependent" should be considered a reason not to include a class ability. That would mean no Wild Empathy, Track, Trackless Step, etc. Those are much more dependent on campaign for their use, IMO.

 

[Kingreaper]

I don't think "campaign dependent" should be considered a reason not to include a class ability. That would mean no Wild Empathy, Track, Trackless Step, etc. Those are much more dependent on campaign for their use, IMO.

It's not a good reason to make it unavailable. It's not even a good reason why it shouldn't be the default.

It is, however, a good reason why you should be able to trade it out for another equally valuable feature.

 

[Hassassin]

It is, however, a good reason why you should be able to trade it out for another equally valuable feature.

Sure. That's one of the many reasons I like PF Archetypes and 3e UA class variants.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't think "campaign dependent" should be considered a reason not to include a class ability. That would mean no Wild Empathy, Track, Trackless Step, etc. Those are much more dependent on campaign for their use, IMO.

There's a broader idea than just "this ability is useful to overcome certain challenges that a DM may or may not use" that I was trying to get at. It varies as to whether turning undead is even an appropriate thing for clerics to be doing. Rangers clearly track, and druids clearly communicate with animals, but clerics have much more variable backgrounds. Some may be better suited to turn demons than undead. Others would more logically turn aberrations. Still others wouldn't logically be turning anything (a cleric of a trickster deity, for instance, or a truely focused healer).

So I think the generic channel energy is more appropriate, because it can be easily modified to fit the campaign. You can do archetypes/alt class features, but I'd rather see that kind of flexibility presented on the first page of the cleric class to make it clear that turning undead is only for some clerics.

 

[Hassassin]

There's a broader idea than just "this ability is useful to overcome certain challenges that a DM may or may not use" that I was trying to get at. It varies as to whether turning undead is even an appropriate thing for clerics to be doing. Rangers clearly track, and druids clearly communicate with animals, but clerics have much more variable backgrounds.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how clerics and turning are so special. Some rangers might live underground or in cities and know nothing about moving in a forest. I could even imagine a druidic order that only cares about plants (though that's a bit of a stretch), or certainly one that considers talking to animals "interference with the natural order".

Those characters and the non-turning cleric could just use the normal class and ignore an ability, use some kind of class variant, or use another class entirely (or perhaps multi-class). I don't think the classes need to be altered to accommodate them.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how clerics and turning are so special.

Druids and rangers are conceptually narrower and more obvious. If I play a druid, I know that talking to animals is my thing. Druids generally have animal companions by default and need to know how to talk to them. A strictly plant-focused druid is an exception, worthy of some kind of alternate mechanics.

Conversely, clerics are not all that strongly related to undead. Clerics *of Pelor*, sure, but not most clerics. The average cleric probably goes through his entire career without ever doing it. So it seems like a strange ability to give to all clerics by default.

Basically it boils down to a difference between what a cleric is in my mind as opposed to on the page. YMMV.

 

[Lanefan]

Conversely, clerics are not all that strongly related to undead. Clerics *of Pelor*, sure, but not most clerics. The average cleric probably goes through his entire career without ever doing it. So it seems like a strange ability to give to all clerics by default.

Basically it boils down to a difference between what a cleric is in my mind as opposed to on the page. YMMV.

My M certainly does V.

Look at it this way. In the real world priests and holy types of all faiths have dealing with the dead and dying as part of their job - last rites, burial ceremonies, etc. - so it's not much of a stretch in the game to expect those same people to be the ones who deal with whatever those dead might turn into. Sure, a stay-at-home temple Cleric might never see a walking skeleton; but she'd know they exist and have basic training on what to do if she ever met one.

In the game only two classes care much about undead (other than as something to destroy): Clerics and Necromancers. Necromancers get 'em up, Clerics put 'em down, and so the cycle goes on.

Lanefan